Problems with dirtbags

When someone makes a shoot/don’t shoot decision in defense of self or others, I won’t second guess. I don’t know if I could do any better in his shoes. Each of us acts according to our present understanding. That is all anyone can do. Few can match the spiritual or physical athletics of someone like Morihei Ueshiba.

I do believe in developing as much mental clarity as possible. Granted, it’s easier said than done. But the more I practice, the better my chances in a crisis. Compassion is no easy discipline. Not mentally, not emotionally, certainly not physically. The plum wine approach (Love the name!) depended on the old man reading the situation accurately, and making a skilful intervention.

These are not just Oriental ideals. Some might recognize this advice: BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, BLESS THEM THAT CURSE YOU, DO GOOD TO THEM THAT HATE YOU, AND PRAY FOR THEM WHICH DESPITEFULLY USE YOU, AND PERSECUTE YOU;
 
I for one find this discussion extremely valuable. Even if I have disagreed with a particular statement I have not disagreed that it is that person's belief and they are entitles to that belief as I am to mine. The only time I would find another persons comment on this thread offensive is if they refuse to allow that I am as entitled to my beliefs as well.

Besides if we can not discuss this topic then it means our minds are closed to re-evaluating the issue on an ongoing basis. I value hearing other viewpoints because it either validates my own current beliefs OR it allows me to consider other viewpoints and determine if those might make me want to re-evaliate my current point. People change, situations change and the world changes. If we are not willing to consider the changes and how they should or should not affect us then we are making poor choices and doing ourselves a dis-service.
 
Shavru said:
I for one find this discussion extremely valuable. Even if I have disagreed with a particular statement I have not disagreed that it is that person's belief and they are entitles to that belief as I am to mine. The only time I would find another persons comment on this thread offensive is if they refuse to allow that I am as entitled to my beliefs as well.
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One thing I noticed very early in life was that the world would really be boring if we all thought the same and had the same beliefs.

The issues that we face in this world is how to have mutual respect for our belief's & difference's and not killing each other over them.
 
I think a lot of people's views on who is and isn't a dirtbag depends pretty heavily on their life experiences, philosophy, and fear management. For me I've lived in the ghetto a lot, I agree with Socrates that a good man doesn't worry about dying he just goes and does good to the best of his ability and I've been in a fair amount of real life situations so I'm not scared. Therefore the dirtbag or 'other' doesn't really hold anything over my head or even really exist because I can see how almost anyone could be caught in a position to be considered one. You can bet your bottom dollar I would have ended up shipped to Australia if I lived in the Ireland of my ancestors for stealing bread and fighting tooth and nail for independence. If I had to define dirtbags they'd be the people that are afraid because they create worlds of laws and governance that necessarily create fear and lack of freedom.

"Fear is the Mind Killer"
--Frank Herbert, Dune
 
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Raymond1000 said:
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These are not just Oriental ideals. Some might recognize this advice: BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, BLESS THEM THAT CURSE YOU, DO GOOD TO THEM THAT HATE YOU, AND PRAY FOR THEM WHICH DESPITEFULLY USE YOU, AND PERSECUTE YOU;
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There's something very similar I once copied out from a Tibetan text.

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The advice from both these traditions seems a bit hard to swallow. Is there really any sense not only in tolerating mean, hurtful, oppressive, nasty, hateful, manipulative, people, but cherishing them, loving them, and holding them as treasures? Assuming this makes any sense at all and is not just pseudo-spiritual rambling, what could it mean?

Binalith said:
I think a lot of people's views on who is and isn't a dirtbag depends pretty heavily on their life experiences, philosophy, and fear management. For me I've lived in the ghetto a lot, I agree with Socrates that a good man doesn't worry about dying he just goes and does good to the best of his ability and I've been in a fair amount of real life situations so I'm not scared. Therefore the dirtbag or 'other' doesn't really hold anything over my head or even really exist because I can see how almost anyone could be caught in a position to be considered one. You can bet your bottom dollar I would have ended up shipped to Australia if I lived in the Ireland of my ancestors for stealing bread and fighting tooth and nail for independence. If I had to define dirtbags they'd be the people that are afraid because they create worlds of laws and governance that necessarily create fear and lack of freedom.
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It seems no matter which culture we hail from, we have to address these issues. Each culture explains the truths in their own style. I can relate to "anyone could be caught in a position to be considered one" because I'm pretty sure I've been on that side of the fence many times.

As much as the philosophers of the past have to teach us, there are some things they didn't know about. In particular, modern pharmacology. I guess they knew about alcohol, but 'roid rage and crystal meth were beyond their ken. How do drugs and pharmaceuticals affect the equation?

Here's a story from today's news about some firefighters, intoxicated, who beat a homeless man sleeping next to a memorial the city had erected to firefighters. Seems they found out the homeless guy had a knife after he woke up. As far as I can tell from the story the homeless guy wasn't arrested.

In the classic Tibetan paintings of the Wheel of Life, there are three creatures in the center of the wheel, keeping it moving. A pig, a snake, and a bird. They are in a circle, eating each other's tails, as they are all connected. The pig represents delusion/ignorance. That is where this thread has been mostly focused, on possible inaccurate perceptions of reality. But the painting hints to us that there may be some other psychological traits connected in some way to mistaken perception. The snake represents hatred/anger/aversion. The bird represents greed/attachment/clinging/desire.
 
Howard Wallace said:
There's something very similar I once copied out from a Tibetan text.

226807_1041023660358_9286_n.jpg


The advice from both these traditions seems a bit hard to swallow. Is there really any sense not only in tolerating mean, hurtful, oppressive, nasty, hateful, manipulative, people, but cherishing them, loving them, and holding them as treasures? Assuming this makes any sense at all and is not just pseudo-spiritual rambling, what could it mean?...


In the classic Tibetan paintings of the Wheel of Life, there are three creatures in the center of the wheel, keeping it moving. A pig, a snake, and a bird. They are in a circle, eating each other's tails, as they are all connected. The pig represents delusion/ignorance. That is where this thread has been mostly focused, on possible inaccurate perceptions of reality. But the painting hints to us that there may be some other psychological traits connected in some way to mistaken perception. The snake represents hatred/anger/aversion. The bird represents greed/attachment/clinging/desire.
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Howard,

We have to be careful here. If we read this as approving cruel and rapacious behavior by the strong over the weak, it’s really bad advice. A slippery slope to a culture of thugs ruled by meaner thugs. Nobody wants that except the thugs.

It’s not about tolerating the behavior. It’s about understanding the causes of behavior. It’s about compassion for the victims of the pig, snake, and bird.

What does that mean in practice? One valuable tool is Tong Len meditation. I could explain it but I won’t. I’ll refer you to an expert: http://www.dalailama.com/teachings/training-the-mind/verse-7
 
Ah Raymond1000 The Dalai Lama, I have met and been able to talk with him twice. He is a very vivid presence and if you have never seen him in person I would suggest that any chance of hearing him speak dont think about it, just go. That being said that opportunity to actually talking with him is a very unique experience. One of the things he said as we talked stays with me every time I consider self defense. He told me that you sometimes have to take a strong stand, however when this is necessary to do so with compassion and without getting mad. Do so effectively because retaliation based on anger is rarely accurate and frequently causes more suffering to yourself than your enemy. (paraphrasing because his specific words were 20+ years ago and though I can remember most of what we discussed the exact words are lost to the cobwebs and dust of my mind such as it is). If Buddha cannot please everyone, then how can I. Even an enlightened being, can not eliminate the karma of each being.

I unfortunately do not have staff, security and a curious public surrounding me and keeping me safe all the time. I am forced to care for my own life and that of my family. So my limitations as a little bit less in the ability to ignore evil people who are out to harm me. I attempt to practice compassion as much as possible, but as someone who has seen demons directly, has had someone shoot me, and who has had to protect herself with lethal force in the past, I can say that in my opinion, I am not ready to leave this earth and will do my best to make certain that if it IS my time to go. It will not be from something I could have prevented if I had just been more aware. And while that on the surface appears to conflict with the Dalai Lama's teachings. Intrinsicly, it is not such a cut and dried thing.
 
Howard,

When I practice tong len I take the dark smoke in with each inhalation. I breath out whatever blessings I have to offer. Tying tong len to the breath helps.

If you encounter a demon within—some issue that always evokes strong afflictive emotions—you can practice tong len with that demon. It’s not easy, but it can heal demons.

Lest we think the Dali Lama is an impractical pacifist, remember when he fled Tibet?

It was a public relations disaster for China. They were desperate to get him back. Better to have him “killed when resisting arrest” that to let him reach India—and the world—alive. Once he was dead, they could say he’d been arrested. Held incommunicado.

The only reason he made the trip alive and free was a troop of armed mountain fighters. They surrounded him and patrolled his route. Always ready to fight Chinese forces.

Many monks who made the same flight were killed.

One thing Tenzin Gyatso wasn't obliged to do was to hate the Chinese invaders.
 
You have hit what my confusion was when I talked with him. He is not a pacifist at all. imperfect or otherwise, he really isn't a pacifist. A pacifist accepts situations. With the Dalai Lama, he doesn't seem to be carried along by situations, the mental image I have of him the times I have met him is a large rock in the middle of a river. The river swirls around the rock and interacts with the rock, and even changes the rock a bit...slowly, but mostly the river just goes AROUND the rock. He is non-violent, but not a pacifist. It is very hard to describe him. That is why I said while my beliefs on self defense appears to conflict with his they really don't. I don't know. I still all these years later don't exactly know how to describe him as a personality.

I do know that I would love to be a lot more like him in a lot of ways. I recognize my own short comings in many ways, some of them I work actively to change, some I accept I won't be able to change and do my best anyways. Overall he is a lot closer to the ideal I strive for each day than I. Me, I know I am a work in progress. Some times the progress is more than the natural regression of my unenlightened state. Those days I celebrate.
 
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AHH HA HA HA HA! Today I got to be a dirtbag! Toilet was clogged up so I told the boss we needed a new plunger! Well I put an "out of order" sign on the door and left it for two days. Finally he got a brand new one today with price tag still on it. I ran to the bathroom and ran some fresh water from the sink on it and plunge stuck it to the top of his desk and he asked me "Did ya get that bathroom taken care of Danny?" "Yes sir boss" I replied "all good". "Can I take the sign off the door now?" "Yes sir boss!". He walked in his office and saw the wet plunger stuck on his desk and bout had a coronary! He was screaming " Awww god you didnt.. did you?. "Yes sir boss all good!:D" He went off crying "im going to have to go get a tetnus shot and all that now! What the^$$. did you do and do that for....BLah blah blah"! Man today is going to be a good day! My stomach hurts!:thumbup:
 
You'd make a damn fine sidekick Ndog. That's precisely the kind of stuff I have a reputation for around here. Don't take life too seriously nobody gets out alive.
 
"So I jump ship in Hong Kong and make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas. A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I'm a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking. So, I'm on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga. So we finish the 18th and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice."

Sorry. I just had to do it.....:D
 
Why thank you sir! The way I figure is if ya make one person in the world laugh you did good even if the rest of the world don't like it!
Bawanna said:
You'd make a damn fine sidekick Ndog. That's precisely the kind of stuff I have a reputation for around here. Don't take life too seriously nobody gets out alive.
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sirupatespecial said:
"So I jump ship in Hong Kong and make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas. A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I'm a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking. So, I'm on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga. So we finish the 18th and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice."

Sorry. I just had to do it.....:D
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It’s not from Caddyshack.

But it does show His Holiness on a ski lift. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/culturebox/2014/02/dalai_lama_at_a_santa_fe_ski_resort_tells_waitress_the_meaning_of_life.html
 
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[video=youtube;xlIrI80og8c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xlIrI80og8c[/video]
 
That goes to show that spiritual metaphors don’t always translate well.

Fare is fare. A culture brazen enough to sell Chocolate Chip Nirvana Bars is in no position to get huffy. :D
 
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