Problems with dirtbags

Back on topic, sort of:

The person who looks like a "dirtbag" might be a good samaritan that would save your life, or the life of a family member, if the need arose. The person who dresses well and holds a "respectable" position might be a child molester, or another type of predator (financial, etc.)

Hard to keep track of the predators that might swim by, everyone is so mobile. Mayberry is hard to find these days. It does feel good to be in a place where you can drop the wariness, or at least dial it back most of the way. A few predators can ruin it for the majority, largely by inspiring fear. I suggest that we try to reclaim friendly relations with neighbors and people in the community, wherever possible.


Back off topic:

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Steve,
Over the years as people are arrested for larceny, Child molestation and you name it its almost always the last person people would think. He was such a nice man. She worked here so long, I would never suspect her of stealing, Always helpful, led a scout troop and on and on.
I believe we call our tendency to trust someone well dressed "The expert effect" or something like that. Watch the show Brain games on NatGeo. They just went over that one.
 
So true! How many times have you heard "My child would never do that!"
Rhinoknives1 said:
Steve,
Over the years as people are arrested for larceny, Child molestation and you name it its almost always the last person people would think. He was such a nice man. She worked here so long, I would never suspect her of stealing, Always helpful, led a scout troop and on and on.
I believe we call our tendency to trust someone well dressed "The expert effect" or something like that. Watch the show Brain games on NatGeo. They just went over that one.
Click to expand...
 
What else should any normal human say?
"I always suspected him to be a child molester, but didn't do anything about it?"
So they
 
LOL, very valid point Jens. On the other hand what exactly CAN you do? Until a crime has been committed telling someone that the nicely dressed gentleman buying all the cookies at the PTA bakesale is a slimeball won't get you very far. Watching them closely will probably also get you in trouble with the courts too. Sort of a problem because the criminal has all these rights that a victim doesn't.
 
I personally understand the "Dirtbag Construct" and reject it as simplistic.

*worldview on*

Every person you meet on the street has a consciousness and this consciousness contains an apex predator.

Most people reject it and I feel sorry for them. They deny the existence of an asset that could save their lives in a misguided effort to be a good person. Faced with a real threat to them and theirs they will either feel shame for not acting, or self-loathing for doing what they must in order to survive. These are the people who would gladly give control to another in exchange for a promise of safety. After all, anyone who recognizes the existence of predators in their world is sick in the head.

Some embrace it in varying degrees. These people believe that as pure predators they are somehow better and "more real" than those they would prey on. In reality they are only more honest with themselves than the deniers, and the price they pay for embracing the predator is an inability to deal with other people in a truly honest and open way. Every action these people take for their advantage, and who cares about the others. After all, anyone who isn't a predator is simply a resource to be used.

Finally there are some people who take a middle road. They refuse to give themselves over to the predator, but they see no need to banish it. These people are the ones who get their exercise at a dojo or on the range while the deniers use a gym and the pure predators rest smug in their superiority. They are training their inner predator and breaking it to their will. To these people EVERYONE is a person first and a potential predator second. They treat deniers and pure predators on the merits of their actions, not the words from their mouths. After all, we all live in the same world.

*worldview off*

Personally, I'll help those who need it and ignore their rantings against my badthink as much as possible. After all, someday they might learn to be different. If I have to kill or maim someone who's decided to be a predator then I'll say a prayer for their soul and remember that they tried to kill me first. After all, if they don't die they might learn to be different.
 
ndoghouse said:
So true! How many times have you heard "My child would never do that!"
Click to expand...

My wife hears that statement most everyday. The scary part is that she teaches kindergarten. My jaw stopped dropping along time ago when she has shared what 6-7 Y/O's are capable of these days and the denial of the parents is out right criminal.

The sad part is she teaches in Montebello Ca, where there are many recent immigrant families and about one third of her students have a parent in jail and from the stuff she tells me about the other parents, another third of them should be in jail! It would be funny if it wasn't so sad!
 
I was discussing corporate larceny with a coworker recently. Where I work, each employee is responsible for reporting his own hours worked and rates earned at the end of each week. Combined with aloof policy enforcement by our supervisors, this system can be easily taken advantage of by more "ambitious" employees. Some guys make up to $1000 more than they earn per month.

The reality is, as long as the perpetrators don't go way over the line, they will NEVER get caught and punished for this because its a big company. So the temptation to involve oneself in this behavior is extremely strong, as it appears to be a perfect crime.

I don't pad the payroll. But when I ask someone why they do, its always the same response: "everyone else does it, why should they get ahead while I'm making less money?"

I think a person's true character can be defined in situations like this. Are these people dirtbags because they want to better support their families? Or are they just victims of a corrupt system? I would want to be neither, but most seem content in being either, which bothers my sensibilities. It's that question of if you knew you could get away with it, would you?

My thought is that if you're not helping the problem, you're contributing to it. And the bigger and more vile the problem becomes, the more of a dirtbag you become for
Supporting it.
 
Your mixing integrity with dirtbag. If I read you correctly I think we're on the same page. If you take advantage of a system because everyone else does and you don't figure you'll get caught your a dirt bag in my book.

BUT there are varying degrees or perhaps types is a better word than degree. The dirtbag who steals from his large employer isn't a physical threat to me or mine which is the type of dirtbag I feel this thread started out addressing.
He can effect me by higher product prices but that will only make me not be able to afford his product, not hurt or harm me or mine.

What you mention is human nature though even with good people. Especially prevalent in government, and even law enforcement. Most live for overtime. Fringe benefits. Perhaps not deserving of the label dirtbag but certainly low on ethics and integrity.
 
My first post on the forum is not what I thought it would be...I saw this thread title first thing after registering, and my first reaction was "oh boy, here we go. Another Internet forum full of kooks!" I was prepared for some hateful rant based on prejudices founded in ignorance. I was pleasantly surprised!
I fell prey to human nature. I made an assessment of a situation based on cursory knowledge. After reading the original post, I was forced to re-evaluate my position and admit my initial assessment was WRONG. I was wrong and I learned something about myself. It made me think about my life experiences and past demonization of barely known threats.
Knowing when to concede ones point of view for a more correct and real viewpoint has somehow become a sign of weakness in some segments of American culture. It is, in fact, a sign of strength, intelligence and psychological maturity.
My incorrect initial assessment was partially due to a rush to judgement that I believe is an inescapable part of our DNA. In early evolutionary stages, humans had to make snap judgements I order to survive, sometimes right and sometimes wrong. We evolved over time and the survivors were those who began to make a second set of assessments and judgements of a given situation and compiled the information to come to a new conclusion - one closer to reality,. These are capabilities we all possess as modern humans.
Another thing we have as modern humans is access to an abundance of information. Some information is scientific, fact based or culturally agreed upon as truth. Some of it is a constructed opinion or viewpoint created to further an agenda or to cause popular belief to be swayed for one reason or another. This is harmful and re shapes the world views of those who do not seek out viewpoints contrary to their own to provide information upon which to base a more correct impression of ones environment.
I grew up in the 70s in an urban west coast setting. I lived in an upper middle class area, mostly white folks just like me. I was part of the school integration push of the time and was bussed to the other end of town for school. The area the school was in was an impoverished minority neighborhood, and was only 30% white. I didn't know any of this was out of the ordinary until I was older. We were kids who made friends with each other, played together and had a great time. I was fortunate to meet and know all sorts of kids from all sorts of backgrounds. I didn't know what racism or discrimination was until middle school, where the racial mix was back to 70% white. For the first time I heard new friends speaking ill of old grade school chums because of ignorant judgements based on appearance. I learned then and there that each of us sees the world through our own set of filters. It is a complicated set, not just a pair of glasses. Filters are added and removed as we continue down our paths, and sometimes we forget they are there if we ever recognized them at all.
The importance of all this is that we don't always realize that the dirtbag or enemy of the day also sees the world from his or her own perspective. The dirtbag may not be a dirtbag at all, but a guy who's currently having a hard time with life, has challenges I do not, or is simply a guy just like me and you.
Fear of the unknown is powerful. Strike up a conversation with someone you don't think you will agree with, maybe you will see eye to eye. When I stopped being afraid of people and started talking to them like friends or neighbors, the whole world opened up to me. There are real bad guys out there, but not nearly as many as there are good guys.
Great posts here, I'm looking forward to spending some time on this forum.
 
Welcome to the Cantina, ChromeMiner.

Reminds me of a quote attributed to Abe Lincoln. "I don't like that man. I need to get to know him better."
 
Yes, Welcome ChromeMiner!
I am glad you stopped by. good to have another viewpoint that is similar but slightly different in the discussion. I have to agree, growing up in the middle of Louisianna in the 60s was a very different reality for me than hubby who grew up in the Pacific Northwest about the same time or a bit before you (mid 1960s-early 70s). He had a very similar experiance to yours from what he has told me. Mine on the other hand included being reminded evey day before I left the house to be careful and not get caught in big crowds OR by myself. And the few times I was allowed to go swimming to watch carefully to make sure I got out quickly if anyone started pouring anything into the pool. Mother had heard of the St. Augustine pool fiasco and no one who grew up in the small town south at that time would ever be allowed to forget it could just as easy happen there.

I never judge dirtbags by their appearance. That is way too inaccurate. I do have a tendancy to judge based on actions. Even when those actions aren't a direct threat, if they imply a threat, I will be much more cautious. While it is true we have evolved over time (well most of us) the snap decision and Gut instinct for trouble is still a very valid initial assessment tool. As you learn more you re-assess, but I think it is important to never discount your first gut instinct while you are gathering additional info. It just might save your life.
 
This area reserved for intermission! Visit the snack bar for a delicious ice cold Pepsi Cola and hot buttered popcorn.
 
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-KJ- said:
I personally understand the "Dirtbag Construct" and reject it as simplistic.

*worldview on*

Every person you meet on the street has a consciousness and this consciousness contains an apex predator.

Most people reject it and I feel sorry for them. They deny the existence of an asset that could save their lives in a misguided effort to be a good person. Faced with a real threat to them and theirs they will either feel shame for not acting, or self-loathing for doing what they must in order to survive. These are the people who would gladly give control to another in exchange for a promise of safety. After all, anyone who recognizes the existence of predators in their world is sick in the head.

Some embrace it in varying degrees. These people believe that as pure predators they are somehow better and "more real" than those they would prey on. In reality they are only more honest with themselves than the deniers, and the price they pay for embracing the predator is an inability to deal with other people in a truly honest and open way. Every action these people take for their advantage, and who cares about the others. After all, anyone who isn't a predator is simply a resource to be used.

Finally there are some people who take a middle road. They refuse to give themselves over to the predator, but they see no need to banish it. These people are the ones who get their exercise at a dojo or on the range while the deniers use a gym and the pure predators rest smug in their superiority. They are training their inner predator and breaking it to their will. To these people EVERYONE is a person first and a potential predator second. They treat deniers and pure predators on the merits of their actions, not the words from their mouths. After all, we all live in the same world.

*worldview off*

Personally, I'll help those who need it and ignore their rantings against my badthink as much as possible. After all, someday they might learn to be different. If I have to kill or maim someone who's decided to be a predator then I'll say a prayer for their soul and remember that they tried to kill me first. After all, if they don't die they might learn to be different.
Click to expand...

Apex predator makes me think of lone crocodiles at the top of their food chains.

Humans however are more like monkeys or wolfs without being in groups they can't take down a big. moose. A single wolf can still do a little damage but is far from the efficiency of a pack.
Same with humans and since being part of a pack is so useful the proper behavior in such groups is hard wired into our brains. Some might call it brainless sheeple others recognize it for its advantages in survival and some think of it being inspired by some god's teachings.
Anyways a human crocodile fighting for itself isn't what has been normal in our past and especially harming other members of the same species is rare and even that happens only after monkeys get together in a group to fight against another group.
 
You can take on a herd of charging elephants solo with the right tool (heavy machine gun) and a cool head. Being social only makes us more effective and gives us access to more effective tools. Remember, humans are the only things on the planet that hunt wolverines.
 
KJ, that is only because wolverines are not worth the effort for other hunters. Too many teeth and attitude for the amount of gain LOL. Only humans are stubborn enough (or maybe that is stupid enough) to not count (effort cost/benefit) ratios LOL. No other animal would do it just because nothing else does it... we frequently do.

"Hold my beer" "Hey everyone! watch THIS"

LOL
 
-KJ- said:
You can take on a herd of charging elephants solo with the right tool (heavy machine gun) and a cool head. Being social only makes us more effective and gives us access to more effective tools. Remember, humans are the only things on the planet that hunt wolverines.
Click to expand...

I apologize in advance to the forum for this rough reply, but frankly the image of someone mowing down a herd of elephants with a heavy machine gun makes me see red. The qualifier that they are "charging" just provides justification for the slaughter. The guy with the machine gun is the villain here. Did the herd of elephants invade his home town, or did he go into their territory with heavy weaponry?

People are entitled to say whatever they like, but it would be better if heavy military weapons were used for their intended purpose, to kill lots of people (in defense, of course, as it always is) rather than to demonstrate that humans are so superior to other animals that we can "take them on" with overwhelming technological force. That certainly has nothing to do with hunting for sport or food.

I'm no pacifist, but there are enough poachers who kill elephants for their tusks that we don't need to invent additional scenarios that devastate those magnificent creatures "with a cool head" (i.e., in cold blood). Even in the Roman Empire, when a family of elephants were killed in the arena it aroused such revulsion by the spectators that the practice was discontinued. Christians, however, remained "fair game."
 
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David I for one respectfully suggest that you took that post totally out of context. I didn't read one letter advocating taking on a herd of elephants. It was just an analogy. Yes it can be done and back to the title a dirtbag would do it. It's another thing on the list that defines a dirtbag.
 
Ok. Let's see...

Demons. The Dali Lama. Golf. Skiing(and ski lifts). Elephants. Machine guns

Yep. This thread has pretty much everything.

Here's something else. How about Elton John? He's a homo. And he has a song called "Crocodile Rock". And he's been knighted. By the Queen.

So, now we have a Queen, who's a knight, who's a homo, another queen and a reptile. Heck yea....
 
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