Quality Boy Scout Knife?
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afishhunter
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Them I like.Those old Ulsters were very fine scout knives.
But on the subject of hot dogs; okay you may not like hot dogs, but how about knockwurst, Bratwurst, Italian sausage, Louisiana boudins?
Look at me afishhunter, this is serious. Going camping without roasting some kind of tube meat on a stick is sort of un-American. I haven't looked it up, but I think it's a written law someplace that one shall roast some kind of tubular meat on a stick. I'll have to look through my old boy scout manual to be sure.
Just no (((gag))) hotdogs for me. Others can have my share of those gross "everything but the oink" things.
lambertiana
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There are a number of Victorinox Swiss Army Knife models with the scout logo on the handle scales for sale in the official BSA store. If that doesn't make it an official knife of the BSA, I don't know what does.
I am a scout leader, and for folders I usually tell the scouts that the best overall knives for their uses would be a SAK, and if they only want a single blade an Opinel would work fine. I bought an Opinel #12 to put in the camp kitchen for car camping and the scouts use it on every outing.
I am a scout leader, and for folders I usually tell the scouts that the best overall knives for their uses would be a SAK, and if they only want a single blade an Opinel would work fine. I bought an Opinel #12 to put in the camp kitchen for car camping and the scouts use it on every outing.
Couple more thoughts on the 4-blade camper pattern, as that appears to have struck a nerve.
1) I think the Leatherman Wingman, which is inexpensive and has scissors (for first aid) is the ideal Boy Scout tool right now. And the Leap would be the ideal Cub Scout tool, as it has a removable blade which can be added back on after a scout completes their knife safety training.
2) The 4-blade camper pattern is a traditional pattern and all traditional patterns are, by definition, tied to tradition. Carrying traditionals (as I and many others do) is an act of nostalgia that maintains our proud connection to particular traditions (even if they aren't ours entirely). But our nostalgia becomes misplaced when it allows us to advocate for our favorite pattern even when that pattern is not the best fit. I think a traditional Opinel 9 or Mora combined with a Leatherman Squirt is a superlative backcountry travel combination but I'm not recommending that combination as I don't think its the best fit for scouting.
3) I think 3 things have happened that have rendered the 4-blade camper pattern less useful for scouting (and camping) compared to a modern pliers based tool. A) Tastes in knives/tools have gotten bigger thanks first to the Buck 110 and later the Spyderco knife. Lots of people love smaller pocket sized slip joints and that is just awesome, but they are in the overwhelming minority. B) The Leatherman happened. Tim Leatheman's Personal Survival Tool changed everything. In Vietnam, soldiers were given the 4-bladed demo knife. Today, many units issue pliers based tools. C) Camping changed. The tools of a 4-bladed camper were perfect for the early 20th century when leather straps, bottled drinks and cans were common. Today's camping means repairing zippers, fixing stoves and driving a needle through thick nylon webbing.
4) More is more better. The 4-bladed camper is much more useful than, say, a comparably sized small sodbuster because it has 3 additional tools and those tools have more utility than no tools (even if they were more useful in a bygone era). More is better in terms of tools. But, the pliers based tools simply take that further. When you think of what Scouts actually do - service project one month and camping with modern equipment the next - the tool selection of a pliers based tool just makes infinitely more sense in my OPINION. Particularly the scissors. Every scout should be getting 1st aid training and really, scissors are pretty much essential for good 1st aid. The scouts should follow the lead of the military and first responders on this one.
1) I think the Leatherman Wingman, which is inexpensive and has scissors (for first aid) is the ideal Boy Scout tool right now. And the Leap would be the ideal Cub Scout tool, as it has a removable blade which can be added back on after a scout completes their knife safety training.
2) The 4-blade camper pattern is a traditional pattern and all traditional patterns are, by definition, tied to tradition. Carrying traditionals (as I and many others do) is an act of nostalgia that maintains our proud connection to particular traditions (even if they aren't ours entirely). But our nostalgia becomes misplaced when it allows us to advocate for our favorite pattern even when that pattern is not the best fit. I think a traditional Opinel 9 or Mora combined with a Leatherman Squirt is a superlative backcountry travel combination but I'm not recommending that combination as I don't think its the best fit for scouting.
3) I think 3 things have happened that have rendered the 4-blade camper pattern less useful for scouting (and camping) compared to a modern pliers based tool. A) Tastes in knives/tools have gotten bigger thanks first to the Buck 110 and later the Spyderco knife. Lots of people love smaller pocket sized slip joints and that is just awesome, but they are in the overwhelming minority. B) The Leatherman happened. Tim Leatheman's Personal Survival Tool changed everything. In Vietnam, soldiers were given the 4-bladed demo knife. Today, many units issue pliers based tools. C) Camping changed. The tools of a 4-bladed camper were perfect for the early 20th century when leather straps, bottled drinks and cans were common. Today's camping means repairing zippers, fixing stoves and driving a needle through thick nylon webbing.
4) More is more better. The 4-bladed camper is much more useful than, say, a comparably sized small sodbuster because it has 3 additional tools and those tools have more utility than no tools (even if they were more useful in a bygone era). More is better in terms of tools. But, the pliers based tools simply take that further. When you think of what Scouts actually do - service project one month and camping with modern equipment the next - the tool selection of a pliers based tool just makes infinitely more sense in my OPINION. Particularly the scissors. Every scout should be getting 1st aid training and really, scissors are pretty much essential for good 1st aid. The scouts should follow the lead of the military and first responders on this one.
I consider the Ulster BSA knife to be one of the last iconic "scout knives". It's the knife that gave me my first stitches and I've never not had one or more in my pile. We used to get them at Sears.
I love the shape of the Ulster blades the best of any camper knife but the Swindon Key construction is pretty weak and pretty much impossible to repair. Some of the early Buck stockman knives were made by Schrade (who owned Ulster) and the move to Camillus was sparked by the problems repairing the Schrade made ones due to the Swindon key. This doesn't mean I love the Ulster any less. Still my first knife.
But a multi-tool just makes so much more sense for today.
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When working as a paramedic, scissors, or more accurately “shears”, were blunt ended and disposable - still are in my country. I’ve cut people out of their clothing on numerous occasions, and it was either major trauma, overdose, or good old-fashioned MI/CA. Slightly beyond the remit of a Boy Scout. On certain occasions I can recall ripping clothes apart along the seams to save time - no scissors required. YMMV.
Slightly beyond the remit of a Boy Scout. On certain occasions I can recall ripping clothes apart along the seams to save time - no scissors required. YMMV.- Joined
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It's interesting to me to see the nostalgia for the Ulster scout knife. I was so excited to get mine in the mid 1980s, and so disappointed forever after. On more than one occasion it folded or ripped a fingernail trying to open one of the tools. Even as an adult it was ridiculous to open anything but the blade.
When working as a paramedic, scissors, or more accurately “shears”, were blunt ended and disposable - still are in my country. I’ve cut people out of their clothing on numerous occasions, and it was either major trauma, overdose, or good old-fashioned MI/CA.
Think bandage prep with a standard camping first aid kit. And moleskin for blister care.
In fact, in our last trip a few weeks ago, I had to fashion a moleskin off load for a blistered toe. A 4-blade camper pattern would have been useless for this task.
IMO, a 4-bladed camper would be more relevant to today's camping and scouting if the awl were replaced with a Philip's head and the can open with folding scissors. The only thing preventing that is tradition.
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Now that is something I would buy!!
That would be super handy.
My first decent knife was a mini leatherman (circa 1999-2001) back in cub scouts. Loved it. The pliers were pretty useful. I eventually got to boyscouts and lost it unfortunately. Then went through several crappy knives and as few traditional slip joints.
My first decent single blade knife was a Buck Rush. It was great, assisted opening easy to sharpen. But the steel didnt hold an edge as long as I liked. When I became an eagle scout I bought myself a Benchmade Mini-Dejavoo. It was my grail ever since I saw it. I carried it daily as an EDC for 3 years.
Sorry to derail the thread. But boyscouts got me into knives. Got me into higher end knives too. And taught me an appreciation for good cutting tools.
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Or....it might be sales. Vic seems to know what they are doing in that department as they are the most selling pocket knife in the history of the world.
Useless? You can't cut things with a knife?
As it turns out, you can get just about any combination of tools you would ever want on a Vic SAK. And before you say adding an extra layer is unacceptable, I think if a boyscout can't handle carrying an extra layer, he should probably just stay home and play video games.
My daughter isn't in girlscouts because around here they don't do much that I consider a scout should. She can learn better elsewhere. Her knife has scissors, philips, and even a can opener! I think it is an older model of the super tinker or something. I believe the current one has a hook where this one has nothing. Even in cool translucent blue:
I prefer the saw and cork screw on mine, because I like sawing things and I will occasionally get a bottle of whine with an actual bit of cork! (also handy for the tiny screw driver):
As for scouting knives, I'd advise a SAK of your choosing within the rules of your troop. We aren't in the scouts of any sort so we can carry what we want. Knives my daughter has access to when we go into the woods:
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Helle Boy Scout or Casstrom Classic Scout, they are inexpensive. Completed with a good Victorinox multi tool.
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I'm slightly confused by this thread. First of all:
Buck 110
A Buck 110 is a hunting knife. It says so in the name. Do boy scouts in America get to go on hunting trips? If so, that is fantastic and marvelous, forget that I said anything. If they don't, however, why would you specifically want a hollow ground hunting blade for cutting wood and building shelters in the forest?
Swiss Army knife
A Swiss Army Knife is very useful, but it's basically a pen knife with a couple of mini tools. Again, if you're bringing a knife into the forest to build shelters and make walking sticks, why not have a proper knife with a proper handle?
Maybe it's a cultural thing. Here in the Old World North we would always carry fixed blades on our belts when I was a scout growing up (30+ years ago of course). I know that Americans love their pocket knives, I'm just curious.
Buck 110
A Buck 110 is a hunting knife. It says so in the name. Do boy scouts in America get to go on hunting trips? If so, that is fantastic and marvelous, forget that I said anything. If they don't, however, why would you specifically want a hollow ground hunting blade for cutting wood and building shelters in the forest?
Swiss Army knife
A Swiss Army Knife is very useful, but it's basically a pen knife with a couple of mini tools. Again, if you're bringing a knife into the forest to build shelters and make walking sticks, why not have a proper knife with a proper handle?
Maybe it's a cultural thing. Here in the Old World North we would always carry fixed blades on our belts when I was a scout growing up (30+ years ago of course). I know that Americans love their pocket knives, I'm just curious.
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"OP, it sounds like your just pushing your own personal preference on knives."
NO! Say it isn't so. Posts expressing personal preference !?!?!?
NO! Say it isn't so. Posts expressing personal preference !?!?!?
Actually, once upon a time in America, we scouts did carry sheath knives as they were called back then. Since they were not broken there was nothing needing to be fixed.
But the tree hugging Sierra Club and Volvo crown screamed that such blades were detrimental to the woods and no scout needed such a 'weapon' as a large knife. So the kids were regulated down to a much more diluted scouting experience than we had in an earlier era. But the 'scout knife' was never about carving a home out of the woods. It was about learning to adapt, fix and make stuff wth a few tools. Camp furniture that was not just tied with twine but pegged with wood dowel pegs that you made yourself. Making a fire board to make a fire with friction and using the awl for the tool to make the notch. Making a fishhook out of a piece of bone or wood.
The whole point of the few basic tools was to teach self reliance and fix stuff. This point has apparently been missed by some who suffer from very narrow focus in their life. A Boy Scout or SAK is a very good teacher for this. I've long lost count of the stuff I've fixed out someplace with just a SAK. A conked out Vespa motor scooter in the middle of nowhere, an electric trolling motor on a canoe, a door knob assembly at a rented cabin in the mountains, a gummy fishing reel. All fixed on site in the outdoors with a SAK. A Buck 110 or any other dedicated knife would have been useless.
Scouting is all about teaching youngsters how to deal with the things life can throw at you. A small multi purpose pocket knife can do that.
A blister off-load requires cutting out a hole in the middle of moleskin and crafting rounded edges to match the wound. No... I can't do that well with a knife. Scissors are much better for that task, imo.
As it turns out, you can get just about any combination of tools you would ever want on a Vic SAK. And before you say adding an extra layer is unacceptable, I think if a boyscout can't handle carrying an extra layer, he should probably just stay home and play video games.
My daughter isn't in girlscouts because around here they don't do much that I consider a scout should. She can learn better elsewhere. Her knife has scissors, philips, and even a can opener! I think it is an older model of the super tinker or something. I believe the current one has a hook where this one has nothing. Even in cool translucent blue:
Seems like we're in agreement with respect to the basic 4-blade camper pattern that was under discussion. We both prefer/recommend "knives" with more tools than the traditional 4-blade pattern and we both recommend that scouts cowboy up to the additional weight. I just go a bit further than you and recommend an actual pliers based multi-tool. For service projects common in scouting, a full multi-tool is much more useful. For modern camping, pliers and scissors are super useful - more useful than can openers and awls. IMO, you'd have a tough time fixing a jammed zipper or pushing a heavy needle through webbing to repair a pack with that SAK.
I'm not following the logic here. We were talking about the 4-blade camper pattern. That Victorinox so many knives doesn't mean their Pioneer (their classic 4-blade camper) the best choice for today's scouts.
Regardless, it would be incredibly interesting to see the sales numbers for Victorinox vs Leatherman broken out by category and run out over the past 10 years or more. I suspect that we would see that Victorinox's overall numbers are highly inflated by the little keychain category. I'll also wager that you would see a steady decline year over year in what Victorinox calls the "medium" sized pocket knife category (including the Pioneer and Super Tinker). My recollection is that softening sales in this category was a primary reason they purchased up Wegner to solidify their position. It's also the reason they responded directly to the increasing popularity of pliers based tools by launching their own line.
Perhaps kids are different where you are. I know that if I were to put a Leatherman or an SAK in front of just about any teenage kid I know, 99 out of a 100 will take the Leatherman. The same would be true for most enlisted guys I know and most LEOs. IMO, this is a pretty easy call.
Jesus and his mother Mary, is this what your long lasting hate of all things Victorinox flows from??????
Some little rich kids put a kink in your psyche because they had some SAK's and you didn't????
Your years long disdain of all things Swiss is very well known on this forum, but Christ Almighty, how long can you bury your head in the sand over some inferiority complex from some little rich bastids in your childhood?
Now it all makes sense! Now I see how you feel the whole rest of the SAk lovin world in wrong and your right.
From my recollection, Victorinox bought Wenger because the latter was going bankrupt and/or out of business.
Some others may disagree, but if we're talking pliers-based multi-tools, I actually prefer Victorinox (Swisstool Spirit) over any Leatherman by a wide margin. And I owned and used several different Leatherman tools over almost an 11-year period before getting my Spirit in 2010. I know people say that the ends of the Vic screwdrivers are more slippery than the Leatherman's but I've personally never found that to be a problem. For me, the Vic multis are better-made and feel better/more solid during use. I'm not saying the Leathermans aren't good tools, just that I prefer the Vics. And even when I was carrying-using Leatherman tools, they never replaced the SAK(s) in my pockets.
Jim
Some others may disagree, but if we're talking pliers-based multi-tools, I actually prefer Victorinox (Swisstool Spirit) over any Leatherman by a wide margin. And I owned and used several different Leatherman tools over almost an 11-year period before getting my Spirit in 2010. I know people say that the ends of the Vic screwdrivers are more slippery than the Leatherman's but I've personally never found that to be a problem. For me, the Vic multis are better-made and feel better/more solid during use. I'm not saying the Leathermans aren't good tools, just that I prefer the Vics. And even when I was carrying-using Leatherman tools, they never replaced the SAK(s) in my pockets.
Jim
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We don't agree. I'm advocating not buying simply getting upset and complaining about the 4 took pattern, but rather buying what you like. No reason to make long posts explaining why one SAK pattern isn't a good official boy scout knife, simply buy what you want for your kid.
We are also talking about a child's first knife. Not a teen or a Leo or the enlisted. A child. A vic SAK makes perfect sense. I'll bet most here will agree.
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My kids have Vic Foresters, they love them. The saws are used almost as often as the blades. Scouting is all but gone in many areas of the UK, particularly inner cities. I plan and organise trips with them and teach them basic skills. There is a scheme for teenagers here called the Duke of Edinburgh Awards (he is the bloke married to our Monarch - Prince Phillip, also the Duke of Edinburgh.) They do Bronze, Silver and Gold. Very similar to scouting but no uniforms and far more autonomy. My 13yr old has signed up for Bronze this year and it will be interesting to see what knife, if any, they recommend/allow on the outdoor stuff. I would bet on a SAK.