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R.I.P. Handgun Ammo ?

Discussion in 'Gadgets & Gear' started by skyhorse, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. M67

    M67 Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 17, 2010
    Not entirely. The PDX is a more modern, better version of the Black Talon. Better bullet construction and expansion minus the lubalox coating
     
  2. Planterz

    Planterz Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 26, 2004
    I wouldn't use it, but I don't think I'd like to be shot with it either.
     
  3. SVTFreak

    SVTFreak Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 8, 2011
    There is some research that shows that no coatings yield higher chamber pressures which yield more velocity therefore more energy.

    I don't wanna be shot with a Benjamin BB gun even so that argument doesn't help much lol
     
  4. UffDa

    UffDa Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 11, 1999
    Here's a Black Talon next to a Ranger. Except for the color, they look pretty much the same to me.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. DocJD

    DocJD

    Jan 29, 2016
    Many years ago , I shot some "Black Talon " to test expansion and penetration and was very unimpressed . But that was 9mm thru a Gl 19 -so pretty short barrel and IIRC it was heavy subsonic . Believe I still have some buried in a cache which is where it will probably remain .
     
  6. STAINLESS90

    STAINLESS90

    Sep 5, 2014
    Don't get me wrong I think this ammo is gimmicky as heck but this isn't 100% true. Three things stop an attacker, pain, blood loss, and trauma to the central nervous system. All those little pieces of metal travelling through a human body would cause more blood loss than a single wound channel. For stopping the central nervous system it looks like it would make a shot to the head just like any other round.

    I personally carry Hydra-shok in my 45 ACP and Speed gold dots for my .380.
     
  7. BladeScout

    BladeScout Basic Member Basic Member

    May 16, 2010
    Lol.
    Bottom line; the Black Talon concept is still around under a new name not tainted by bad press.
    (Notice there is no question mark).
     
  8. BladeScout

    BladeScout Basic Member Basic Member

    May 16, 2010
    With some notable exeptions; way back when, there was the 'cookie cutter' bullet.
    The concept was to fire a tubular projectile at a body mass.
    Basically the defensive ammo carved out a huge sausage inside the wound channel thus was supposed to bleed out a body fast.
    A single projectile (after shedding wad).
     
  9. SVTFreak

    SVTFreak Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 8, 2011
    You might want to do more research on one shot stopping data and the proven way to attain that.

    Good choice in ammo. I also use gold dot but in 9mm.

    There is lots of information compiled by FBI and a doctor out of Chicago that sheds a lot of light on what's the best pistol round to neutralize a threat.
     
  10. STAINLESS90

    STAINLESS90

    Sep 5, 2014
    If you truly study effective handgun use you know that the "one shot stop" is pretty much a fable. Here is the conclusion to the 1989 handgun study performed by the FBI.
    CONCLUSIONS
    Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit.
    Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those
    individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival
    determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.
    The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield,
    and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient
    blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly
    destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15
    seconds.
    Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of
    bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The
    bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid
    bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the
    1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and
    reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the
    wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through
    vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is
    always with the bigger bullet.

    As I put from the ballistic tests shown the R.I.P. ammo would cause many small wound channels and one large one. Instead of getting one chance to nick or hit vital arteries or veins you get nine chances (the main body and the eight petals). This is in concept, in reality I can agree that this specific ammo using this specific idea won't work nearly as well as say Speer Gold Dots which have a long history or reliability in expansion, function, and penetration.
     
  11. Converge

    Converge

    695
    Oct 4, 2014
    Very good point. There are some stunning instances of gun fights studied by the FBI and other LE showing how people can continue to fight even after being hit many many times. The most important thing by far is shot placement. Like stated, even mortal wounds may not stop someone from fighting for seconds or minutes after they're hit until they succumb.

    Pistols are not optimal man stoppers, in all the common carry calibers. Sure there's something to be said about being hit with a 500 magnum but for your 380/9/40/45/38 it's all about shot placement.

    I also carry Speer Gold Dots by the way. I find them to be very accurate and I know they preform well. HST is great too.
     
  12. demoncase

    demoncase

    195
    Jun 9, 2013
    Regardless of the potential 'downrange effectiveness' of the design, at $45 for 20: I'd have to spend a big chunk of change before I'd run enough through a gun to call any ammo 'reliable' and 'accurate'....Let alone something that I'd stick in a self defence piece.

    A less 'superior' round that costs half as much I'm going to shoot twice as much, and know to a cast iron certainty that it's going to cycle and hit the target if I've shot 5 or 500.
     
  13. glockman99

    glockman99 Super Moderator Super Mod

    Jun 12, 2000
    That stuff is garbage...Way too light as the pieces break-off...Very poor penetration, and very little impact force.

    I'll stick with the +P Underwood 230 grain Gold Dot in my Glock 21-2.

    45_ACP_P_230_Grain_Bonded_JHP_Underwood_Ammo__66869.1449087466.1280.1280.jpg
     
  14. M67

    M67 Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 17, 2010
    The concept as in....hollow points?

    Just because a bullet looks the same on the outside doesn't mean they're the same on the inside or constructed the same.
     
  15. BladeScout

    BladeScout Basic Member Basic Member

    May 16, 2010
    Stop....just stop.

    You are digging an even bigger hole for yourself - its embarrassing.

    The design and experiences of the Black Talon was carried over into the Ranger/STX line of ammo.
     
  16. M67

    M67 Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 17, 2010
    What hole am I exactly digging here? You're the one not recognizing that a bullet can change and evolve. Just because they look the same doesn't mean they are. When did the Black Talon come out? Early 90s? So in the almost 30 years since the creation of that bullet you're saying that no technological advances have been made in bullet construction or expansion

    Was the Black Talon the original? Yes. But the Ranger and PDX evolved from it, it's not the same rebranded bullet.
     
  17. skyhorse

    skyhorse Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 30, 2010
    I'd rather be judged by twelve , than carried by six. ;) :D
     
  18. jackknife

    jackknife

    Oct 2, 2004
    In the end, it doesn't really matter what kind of bullet it is, if it hits a vital organ you're done. I knew two people who died from a gunshot from a small caliber round in the chest that was a full metal jacket. One was a .25acp, and the other was a .380. Both were hit once, and both dropped right there and died.

    Remember one things folks, it's always all about the money. They can jack up the price of a box of ammo with a fancy shaped bullet and a lot of hype and charge three times the price. But the old full jacket .45 acp is still working just fine.

    If you hit the vital area, then the target will be down. Miss with a .50 and nothing is going to happen.
     
  19. skyhorse

    skyhorse Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 30, 2010
    I believe this round was designed for maximum shock with minimum penetration. It's not a round that would possibly pass thru walls to injure an unintended target.
     
  20. BladeScout

    BladeScout Basic Member Basic Member

    May 16, 2010
    Ohh, dear ...
     

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