Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

[STR]

I'm actually a little bummed that ZDP didn't do even better than the others, especially given the hardness. It's pretty much kicked all of my other knives out of my pocket for EDC, I've been really enjoying it in my Caly's. Oh well, I love to see these results, even if they aren't what I was expecting.

That's what makes this fun, you gotta have an open mind!

Yep. Sometimes when you follow the facts where they lead you its not always pretty but if you can observe the results and set aside any bias or pre-determined beliefs you may have for what you are testing you can actually begin to see what is what even if it does shatter some paradigms in the process. I applaud Jim's efforts here because he has come up with a great series of tests that seem to dispel some myths both positive and negative that were floating about regarding some of what we use in the way of cutlery. :thumbup:

STR

 

[effer]

Thanks for all the tests. More data the better

Kind of surprised that AUS-8 made into Cat-4 (along with S30V, VG-10 and SG-2)

Also didn't really expect to see VG-1 and VG-10 in different categories. I was under impression that VG-10 is more wear resistant, but less tough compared to VG-1.

What is the number of cuts separating the categories. Any way to assign a percentage values according to observed performance?

 

[Ankerson]

Thanks for all the tests. More data the better

Kind of surprised that AUS-8 made into Cat-4 (along with S30V, VG-10 and SG-2)

Also didn't really expect to see VG-1 and VG-10 in different categories. I was under impression that VG-10 is more wear resistant, but less tough compared to VG-1.

What is the number of cuts separating the categories. Any way to assign a percentage values according to observed performance?

Well the AUS-8A that I tested was real AUS-8A that was done correctly.

The number of cuts varies between the categories right now, that will change over time as more steels are tested as more categories are added based on the number of cuts.

All the steels in each category have the exact same number of cuts, that's how I assigned them to the categories.

There is a pretty big gap between Category 3 and 4 right now, but that will change once other steels are added that fit between them, I will add another category.

 

[Ankerson]

If the edge stays true longer because its stronger with less frayed ends and jagged edges it would make sense that you could get a better idea of just what each steel is capable of when as close to ideal as you can get it but even two edges from two different knives taken to the same exact bevel angle and done to the same grit will have various differences in primary grind geometry that can also affect the way they cut as well as edge strength. One other thing I've noticed is the finish also. I've always believed that a high finish like that Phil does on his knives you posted earlier make it that much easier for a blade to slice through things as opposed to one just bead blasted or left rather course finished by comparison. I'm sure the differences are nil but the point is there would probably be difference in even two of the same blades with one finished out and the other not. How to prove that is another thing altogether but it could probably show up in a test like you are running Jim.

While a high polish may make the edge stronger I agree that its not really optimum for a lot of things people do on a daily basis. Push cutting is great for carving wood but you aren't really going to need it for slicing rags or cutting out an old radiator hose from your 1955 IHC pickup truck. Okay, my 1955 IHC truck!

STR

There is also another variable in there that some don't know, polished edges can slice very aggressively. That's one of the things that I have found in the testing, but then that depends on the edge and how refined it is.

When I did the Polished vs non polished testing I was using slicing cuts just like in the above testing. I am not doing any push cutting at all.

Phil Wilson found this out 1st hand when he cut with 2 of my knives that I sent him.

 

[DennisStrickland]

sodak do'nt be bummed by the zdp performance. spydies issues in this alloy give you a premium performer at a cost that allows many of us to buy these knives. what the future of m4 & m390 holds is moot. these alloys may not ever become mainstream due to expense. consider also the advent of nitrogen & niobium, exactly how these new elements may impact cutlery is still on the horozion. todays champ may be relegated to fourth or fifth place. i certainly have a bunch of the alphabet alloys but my fav in the sticks is still 1095. people whom are happy with a good performer that needs a little oil every now & then will find simple things in life are'nt bad.
dennis

 

[STR]

There is also another variable in there that some don't know, polished edges can slice very aggressively. That's one of the things that I have found in the testing, but then that depends on the edge and how refined it is.

When I did the Polished vs non polished testing I was using slicing cuts just like in the above testing. I am not doing any push cutting at all.

Phil Wilson found this out 1st hand when he cut with 2 of my knives that I sent him.

Yes, even though the highly polished can slice they are better at push cuts than one just sharpened normally with a more course edge that wouldn't push cut all that well. I think its more likely most would find a happy medium offering some of both. What I'm saying is that you could put a 30 degree edge on Fulcrum II Extreme Ratio with the 5mm thick blade and a 30 degree angle on a Buck 880 and a 30 degree edge on a Spyderco Military and even if all three were the same blade steels at the same hardnesses they'd cut and perform differently due to the grind and blade thickness differences. I mean a 30 Degree inclusive edge on ER Fulcrum II will still be a rather obtuse edge compared to the same angle on a Millie.

Also, its a lot of work to put a high polish on a blade compared to just sharpening one as most do using a bench stone or Sharpmaker. Not only that but the first time you ding the edge on something you worked that hard to do or on something you paid someone else to do for you it is a pretty bad feeling. Even worse, the first time someone else does that for you if you loan it to them or let them see it and they do something with it after you went to the effort to get that done its a pretty bad feeling so I don't think its something realistic that everyone will want. For the purposes of testing its a nice parameter though. :thumbup:

STR

 

[Ankerson]

Yes, even though the highly polished can slice they are better at push cuts than one just sharpened normally with a more course edge that wouldn't push cut all that well. I think its more likely most would find a happy medium offering some of both. What I'm saying is that you could put a 30 degree edge on Fulcrum II Extreme Ratio with the 5mm thick blade and a 30 degree angle on a Buck 880 and a 30 degree edge on a Spyderco Military and even if all three were the same blade steels at the same hardnesses they'd cut and perform differently due to the grind and blade thickness differences. I mean a 30 Degree inclusive edge on ER Fulcrum II will still be a rather obtuse edge compared to the same angle on a Millie.

Also, its a lot of work to put a high polish on a blade compared to just sharpening one as most do using a bench stone or Sharpmaker. Not only that but the first time you ding the edge on something you worked that hard to do or on something you paid someone else to do for you it is a pretty bad feeling. Even worse, the first time someone else does that for you if you loan it to them or let them see it and they do something with it after you went to the effort to get that done its a pretty bad feeling so I don't think its something realistic that everyone will want. For the purposes of testing its a nice parameter though. :thumbup:

STR

Yeah, that's why I do it for the testing, so the edges are as close as I can make them. The closer they are the more consistant the results will be and repeatable. That's why I have set the sharpness standard for the test blades so high.

 

[sodak]

sodak do'nt be bummed by the zdp performance. spydies issues in this alloy give you a premium performer at a cost that allows many of us to buy these knives. what the future of m4 & m390 holds is moot. these alloys may not ever become mainstream due to expense. consider also the advent of nitrogen & niobium, exactly how these new elements may impact cutlery is still on the horozion. todays champ may be relegated to fourth or fifth place. i certainly have a bunch of the alphabet alloys but my fav in the sticks is still 1095. people whom are happy with a good performer that needs a little oil every now & then will find simple things in life are'nt bad.
dennis

Hi Dennis,

You have a good point here. I do enjoy them, and still enjoy some carbon steel traditionals, even if they don't compare in edge holding, they're fun to use and will still do the job.

I like a good patina on my knives, I might have to start another thread on that.

Hey Ankerson, would you be interested in an M2 HSS homemade blade at 65-66 HRC? I've got one that's a very good cutter, but don't want to bury you under steel, as I know this is a TON of work, and really appreciate you doing this! If I have to get in line behind that Gunmike1 guy, it'll be years - he's got some good ones!

 

[Ankerson]

Hi Dennis,

You have a good point here. I do enjoy them, and still enjoy some carbon steel traditionals, even if they don't compare in edge holding, they're fun to use and will still do the job.

I like a good patina on my knives, I might have to start another thread on that.

Hey Ankerson, would you be interested in an M2 HSS homemade blade at 65-66 HRC? I've got one that's a very good cutter, but don't want to bury you under steel, as I know this is a TON of work, and really appreciate you doing this! If I have to get in line behind that Gunmike1 guy, it'll be years - he's got some good ones!

Sure I can test it, give me a few weeks to get caught up and then send it and we will see what it will do.

That 10V Phil Wilson blade will be here soon. :thumbup:

 

[Splinter]

Jim appreciate all the time and effort you put into these tests. One steel I haven't seen real world info on is Duratech 20CV. Do you have any info on this steel or a possible steel to compare it to?

Thanks again,
Les

 

[Ankerson]

Jim appreciate all the time and effort you put into these tests. One steel I haven't seen real world info on is Duratech 20CV. Do you have any info on this steel or a possible steel to compare it to?

Thanks again,
Les

20CV is very close to M390, it's Duratechs vers of Bohler M390, they are close, but not exactly the same due to the procees used to make the steels.

 

[bpiatt]

Are you sure you dont want to hammer each of the blades into concrete to determine which will hold its edge best?

 

[gga357]

ANy chance you are going to throw in an INFI or Diamondsteel blade? Great job by the way.

 

[Big Mike]

Category 1

M390 (60)
CPM M4 (62.5)

Category 2

ZDP-189 (65)
CPM-154 (62)

Category 3

S30V (60)
VG-1

Category 4

VG-10
S30V (58)
AUS-8A
SG-2

Category 5

CTS-BD1

Wow, ...great stuff my friend. :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thank you for taking the time and effort.


The results for CPM-154 (@62Rc) are impressive.


I like seeing the two results for S30V.

...they are not unexpected based on my experience.


I look forward to seeing other steels tested at different hardnesses. :thumbup:




Big Mike

 

[Ankerson]

ANy chance you are going to throw in an INFI or Diamondsteel blade? Great job by the way.

I don't have any INFI that is thin enough with a long enough blade to test.

Wow, ...great stuff my friend. :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thank you for taking the time and effort.


The results for CPM-154 (@62Rc) are impressive.


I like seeing the two results for S30V.

...they are not unexpected based on my experience.


I look forward to seeing other steels tested at different hardnesses. :thumbup:




Big Mike

Thanks.

 

[misterjuiceman]

I'm surprised CPM-154 and S30V (58 or 60) aren't in the same category and that M390 and M4 are in the same category. I'd be interested in seeing where CTS-XHP and CTS-40CP end up on this.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

what the future of m4 & m390 holds is moot. these alloys may not ever become mainstream due to expense.

Where did you get this information? ZDP189 is much more expensive than both CPM M4 and M390.

I think both steels have a great future in custom knives. If knife companies and normal users will overcome their fear of rust CPM M4 will do well. M390 will become more popular as more people use it. I think the same is true of S90V.

 

[Ankerson]

I'm surprised CPM-154 and S30V (58 or 60) aren't in the same category and that M390 and M4 are in the same category. I'd be interested in seeing where CTS-XHP and CTS-40CP end up on this.

Both the M390 at 60 and M4 at 62.5 aren't at optimal hardness, that's why.

CPM-154 at 62 RC is right on while S30V at 60 really needs to be a few points higher.

 

[knarfeng]

The D2 Military and the 154CM blade would be great additions for sure. :thumbup:

I did test 2 exact blades at the same hardness and same steel and they were within 10 cuts of each other.



The reason I use the polished edges is so it takes out another variable, differences in sharpening and it's easy to compare sharpness between the blades. Having a strict sharpness test like I do only increases the accuracy of the testing process. All the knives are sharpened to measured 30 degrees inclusive on the same EP and to the same sharpness. That takes out 2 huge variables right there, all the steels start out on an even plane. That is verified by the consistency of the starting downward force between the steels. We also have the same stopping downward force on all steels at 20 LBS.

Also using the polished edges means the steels will cut longer so we have a more definite sharpness curve. All the polished edges do is make the edges stronger so they cut longer before edge breakdown.

That's why I can say it's as accurate as it is, but as with any testing process it's not perfect, not even the CARTA is perfect.

Also I am not ranking the steels in order, I am putting them into categories by edge retention based on the number of cuts to reach 20 LBS, we are looking for the big differences.

I understand about giving the same level of initial sharpness, but your ranking does not match my usage experience, nor do I think it match the usage experience of the average poster here.

I understand that a polished blade may well cut better and longer than a non-polished blade. However, if it requires a polished edge to achieve your result, and most users don't use a polished edge, will your ranking reflect the experience of the general population? The average user, even on BF, does not use a 6000-grit finish. Will the average user in the field actually get the same edge retention with AUS8 as with VG10 or S30V? I tend to doubt that they will. I don't.

 

[gunmike1]

I'll try send the Millie in CPM D2 and the Rift in 154CM next week. Any interest in an S90V Manix 2 @ 59 RC? The S90V Manix 2 is a great knife for throwing a rough 320 grit edge on it that tree tops arm hairs and easily push cuts newsprint then slicing cardboard forever. It is reluctant to take a polish but will get a TP slicing edge with some work. Im sending off my other S90V Manix 2 and my M4 Gayle Bradley and my M4 Millies off for testing the hardness. Any interest in one of those M4 knives if they end up testing out at 64 RC? That might represent a change in it's performance. I also have a ZDP 189 Mule that is supposedly 67 RC or so. That may represent ZDP better than the knife you used, but my Mule is among the brittle ones that was so hard Spyderco tempered them down to a lower hardness so they would be less prone to breakage. That knife may make me and Sodak happier since we are fans of ZDP.

I really applaud you efforts and my collection is available to you if you have the time or inclination to test different steels at different hardness levels. Another thing just popped in my head about the great edges you put on the knives: Have you ran into any steels that just don't take a polished edge easily? As I described S90V just isn't too easy to polish up in my experience, where M4 and others get blinged out quickly and easily. I think one of the reasons I love M4 is it's ease of sharpening paired with it's excellent edge retention. S90V holds a working edge forever but you have to fight it to get the polished show off edge that I like, which is why I generally just put that DMT Coarse edge on it and let it cut away.

Mike