Re-quenching Mexican Collins Axe?

The Mighty Ginsu said:
Let's say I went nuts and decided to try to harden a new Collins just for fun. I would have to remove the head, heat the edges, and quench.

1. Should I assume oil is the right thing to use, and will any old oil work?

2. What's the best way to temper it?
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The problem is the steel, not the factory quench/heat treat on a new cheap axe. Anyway, you would want water and then tempering. But this is not going to be a fruitful exercise.
 
The Mighty Ginsu said:
Let's say I went nuts and decided to try to harden a new Collins just for fun. I would have to remove the head, heat the edges, and quench.

1. Should I assume oil is the right thing to use, and will any old oil work?

2. What's the best way to temper it?
Click to expand...

I support this for science but the others are right .... it's gonna be a roll of the dice as to whether or not it's even worth the effort. I would just file test it after the quench and see what happened before worrying about tempering.
 
jblyttle said:
The problem is the steel, not the factory quench/heat treat on a new cheap axe. Anyway, you would want water and then tempering. But this is not going to be a fruitful exercise.
Click to expand...

I'm willing to reckon the problem IS with the heat treatment, because clean axe-suitable steel is not expensive, but large-batch heat treating is sloppy work unless you have equipment up to a certain standard, so they typically heat treat on the soft side so that the range of hardness of the heads is soft enough so that not even the hardest ones will be excessively hard.
 
jblyttle said:
Come on, it's not that bad. There are tons of nice old heads out there for $15-20 and under that make playing with a Mexican head seem silly.
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Your idea of "nice" is not the same as mine, or maybe you haven't shopped Ebay in 10 years. Many of the double axes on Ebay are sharpened down to the point where they barely look like axes. The ones that aren't are generally badly rusted, or they have big hammer depressions where idiots have gouged them up. The rusted ones will work perfectly well after a lot of wire-brushing and sharpening, but if I'm only going to have one double-bitted axe and take the time and trouble to hang it, I want one that looks reasonably good. I want something 10" or more long, not an 8" stump. Clean old name-brand American axe heads that aren't nubs start at about $40.

For some reason, there are a lot of axes that look like they were stored for years in puddles. They have very heavy pitting on one side or both. I have been wondering how people rust axes that badly. It's like they managed to find places where there was always standing water, and they laid the axes in them and left. I have old steel tools, and none of them look like that. People seem to be unloading their abused garbage on Ebay.

If you check Ebay right now, you'll see that I'm right. If there were any nice double-bitted felling axes (not swampers or cruisers) on Ebay for $15, I would know about it. There are none at all. I would not use the word "tons."
 
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Great example which proves I'm telling the truth. That axe has big chips out of the edges and will lose 1/2" of width when it's sharpened.

You'll never find one. It's a total waste of time. I already looked, and we're looking at the same inventory.
 
I've seen it. No brand name. Could be Chinese for all I know. Please believe I know how to search on Ebay. You can waste your time if you want, but I'm not going to join you by criticizing every axe you produce. I have seen every one of them.

No "tons." Not even one.
 
The Mighty Ginsu said:
Great example which proves I'm telling the truth. That axe has big chips out of the edges and will lose 1/2" of width when it's sharpened.

You'll never find one. It's a total waste of time. I already looked, and we're looking at the same inventory.
Click to expand...

I can appreciate the initiative to make something cost effective and readily available better than it is out of the factory.

Before there is an arguement about who is right or wrong and availability, I’ve heard of sites/forums where guys find these sorts of things regularly that might be passed on... Black markets, speak-easy’s, dark web jobs...
 
The Mighty Ginsu said:
I've seen it. No brand name. Could be Chinese for all I know. Please believe I know how to search on Ebay. You can waste your time if you want, but I'm not going to join you by criticizing every axe you produce. I have seen every one of them.

No "tons." Not even one.
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OK, I can appreciate where you're coming from - I even share a few sentiments to a certain lesser degree - but you kinda have your answer then. So just do it. Stop searching for something you admittedly can't find and start searching for things you can find - like heat treating processes. The days of axes being valueless are over. They reached virtual obsolescence and their value matched their desirability. That's over. Ebay isn't a place to give things away to people who can't find them on their own, Ebay is a place to make money off people who can't find things on their own.

BTW, JB didn't say a word about Ebay in his post. There are tons and in fact I would venture to say that he has literally, not figuratively, purchased something nearing a ton of axes for the money he stated (not on Ebay) and sold many of them at that price ..... wait for it .... on Ebay.
 
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Stop searching for something you admittedly can't find and start searching for things you can find - like heat treating processes.
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Maybe I should post a thread about re-quenching new axes. Wait...that sounds familiar.

There are tons and in fact I would venture to say that he has literally, not figuratively, purchased something nearing a ton of axes for the money he stated (not on Ebay) and sold many of them at that price ..... wait for it .... on Ebay.
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He wanted me to buy axes I couldn't find? No, he just didn't check the market.

As for sources other than Ebay, I don't have them. It must be nice to live in Washington or Vermont, where everyone has 50 nice axes in their shed, but I'm in Florida, where people buy Chinese tools and take trees down with bulldozers. There are no Fifteen-Dollar Axe Outlet franchises near me. There is nothing on Facebook Marketplace, Craigslist, or Offerup. There are no websites selling old axes at low prices. It would be silly to spend days wandering around the area's substandard, disappointing flea markets just to find one axe.

I think it would be easier just to admit I was right.

I can find something faster, if I'm willing to spend a lot more.
 
I always find several cheap axes every single time I look on eBay. I bought 3 axes this year from there, not because I needed them, but just because they were to cheap to pass on.

Earlier this year I bought 2 Flint Edge double bit heads that still had factory paint on them, and they had never been sharpened. I paid $30 for the pair, and the seller shipped. I recently gave $22 for an unsharpened Tommy Axe, with the original handle tight as a drum an not a ding anywhere.
 
I’m in the same situation up here in Canada. It’s hard to find certain types of axes and other vintage tools locally. I check out antique shops and sales when I have time and sometimes I get lucky, but if there’s something I really want, I just have to pay the going price on eBay and have it shipped up here. That’s all there is to it really.
 
In regards to your original question, I give you full credit for wanting to try something different. Maybe we can all learn something from your experience.
 
The Mighty Ginsu said:
Let's say I went nuts and decided to try to harden a new Collins just for fun. I would have to remove the head, heat the edges, and quench.

1. Should I assume oil is the right thing to use, and will any old oil work?

2. What's the best way to temper it?
Click to expand...

Yes, oil not water. And preheated. Toss a red hot railroad spike into a gallon of quench to warm it up. I like to use old used canola frying oil. Motor oils are dirtier. It's best if the edge isn't too thin when you heat it for quenching. A thin edge will overheat and be ruined. Blunt it slightly.

Temper it immediately after quenching in your oven. Give it an hour at 450°, then cool and file test. If it's too hard then try again at 475°, then 500°. Above 500° use 10° increments. Give a fresh file a good chance to bite the axe at each temperature. If you can't file it then increase the temperature and temper it again. These multiple tempering cycles are good for the steel, relieving stress.


FortyTwoBlades said:
I'm willing to reckon the problem IS with the heat treatment, because clean axe-suitable steel is not expensive, but large-batch heat treating is sloppy work unless you have equipment up to a certain standard, so they typically heat treat on the soft side so that the range of hardness of the heads is soft enough so that not even the hardest ones will be excessively hard.
Click to expand...

I think the trouble is both the heat treat and the factory grinding. Sloppy grinding ruins the temper in places. Plus if you have un-homogenized recycled steel (as I mentioned earlier) then you can never get a good edge. But let's assume the steel is at least OK and give re-heat treating a chance.

Assume a simple steel like 4140 or 1050, maybe even 1060.
 
Square_peg said:
Yes, oil not water. And preheated. Toss a red hot railroad spike into a gallon of quench to warm it up. I like to use old used canola frying oil. Motor oils are dirtier. It's best if the edge isn't too thin when you heat it for quenching. A thin edge will overheat and be ruined. Blunt it slightly.

Temper it immediately after quenching in your oven. Give it an hour at 450°, then cool and file test. If it's too hard then try again at 475°, then 500°. Above 500° use 10° increments. Give a fresh file a good chance to bite the axe at each temperature. If you can't file it then increase the temperature and temper it again. These multiple tempering cycles are good for the steel, relieving stress.




I think the trouble is both the heat treat and the factory grinding. Sloppy grinding ruins the temper in places. Plus if you have un-homogenized recycled steel (as I mentioned earlier) then you can never get a good edge. But let's assume the steel is at least OK and give re-heat treating a chance.

Assume a simple steel like 4140 or 1050, maybe even 1060.
Click to expand...
I am not able to speak with authority, but it was always my understanding that thicker heavier pieces of simpler steels like axes and hammers wanted a water quench. If I remember E&S went as far as using brine.
 
Square_peg said:
I think the trouble is both the heat treat and the factory grinding. Sloppy grinding ruins the temper in places. Plus if you have un-homogenized recycled steel (as I mentioned earlier) then you can never get a good edge.
Click to expand...

Something like 80% of all steel is recycled, and we have pretty comprehensive understanding of how to do the job properly without issues of heterogeneous billets or meaningful contamination. The steel in most axes during the golden axe of axe manufacturing was likely pretty filthy compared to the average recycled steel of comparable grade today. I've personally struggled to find any scholarly articles on un-homogenized steel posing a problem in recycling. Unless you're buying sludgy rebar-grade garbage (which you'd probably be better off not even heat treating at all, at that point) I doubt that would be an issue you'd be likely to encounter with any axe bought off the rack at a major hardware store chain.
 
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