S30V: Is it really 'that' bad?

fjblair said:
Seems reasonable to me. I've owned knives since I was a Cub Scout and never had a knife "chip". If I chip a knife, it's my fault, not some shortcoming of the blade steel.
Click to expand...
True, but some steels are tough enough to make up for the misdeed that caused the chip.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Otherwise when the ingot cools during the traditional process the alloy/carbide cools faster and forms large networks that are about impossible to break up with heat treatment.

This makes a knife that has low toughness and is more difficult to sharpen then the same steel that has the PM process.

But a PM steel will generally have lower toughness then non PM steels.
Click to expand...

You are saying contradictory things here. Which is correct? Either PM process steels are tougher or ingot steels are. Which is it you are trying to say?
 
S30V is fine as long as you don't use it for anything more than a paper slicer. My first PM2 chipped just by looking at it the wrong way. Followed quickly by a Manix 2 that chipped while cutting a strap at work. I refuse to buy S30V unless it's in a knife design that I love and don't plan on using/carrying, which is a rarity for me anymore. The only other steel I've had chip on me was CTS XHP, but it took a lot more for that to chip than S30V, and they are tiny chips in comparison.
 
I had a pm2 with S30v chip on me cutting a thick strap the other day.. in the knifes defense it was a really dirty strap and I also made some slices at it just to see what it would do.. I only had one chip and it was very small, actually it could've been a roll and the only reason I noticed it cause I looked at the apex under light. I was glad to get to sharpen it for the first time so I didn't pay much attention
 
Aldebaran said:
You are saying contradictory things here. Which is correct? Either PM process steels are tougher or ingot steels are. Which is it you are trying to say?
Click to expand...
High alloy PM steel is tougher then high alloy steel with no PM

You don't PM lower alloy steels. No benefit

You will not find CPM 1095 because it's not needed.
 
I've got an older 710 M2 from Benchmade, a Spyderco Manix 2 S90V, sold off all my M4's and also have a PM2 and Sage 2 in S30V. Had a small Sebenza in S30V that I sold. Frankly I'm downgrading all my knives to just a few as these are the classics I enjoy using.

S30V is excellent steel that is produced for and used by first class companies. S30V steel sharpens easily, cuts smoothly, holds an edge... maybe not as long as S90V... but the edge holds and works well.

I frankly don't know where all the bashing of S30V steel is coming from but for my dollar, you can buy an S30V knife for very reasonable dollars and it will OUTLAST virtually anything and everything you will ever put it through.
 
Deadbox Hero , you confused a few things . PM steels have lower inclusion content , smaller carbides .They have less directional [to the rolling direction] , easier to machine and grind. Smaller more uniform distribution of carbides means fractures usually go through the metal at random paths .Larger carbides usually have a carbide to carbide fracture .
That all means PM steels are tougher !Never forget that each steel is different and should be treated on it's own merits .
OT, I just had another chance to use my new CPM-4V knife .When the ring of a pop top can of kippers broke I grabbed my 4V and opened the aluminum can- it worked perfectly ! My Viking blood helped me handle kippers [herring ] easily ! :rolleyes:
 
S30V is an excellent steel if heat treated properly -- fairly tough and very wear resistant -- but who ever knows what the heat treat is? It can be and is a chippy steel if not heat treated properly. I have S30V knives that chip easily and ones that don't.

The thing that bothers me about these threads is the notion that these steels are so similar that no one can tell the difference. That's not true. Look at Ankerson's epic thread. Some steels get barely a hundred cuts. Others go over a thousand. You couldn't tell that difference?

The reason that S30V has so many detractors is because it's tendency to chip in the early days was painfully obvious to ordinary users doing ordinary things.

If you look at Charpy data on toughness, you'll see a huge difference in steel toughness from alloy to alloy. You don't think you can tell 3V from S90V when chopping anything hard?

To anyone who uses their knives and pays attention, differences in steel strength (resistance to rolling and denting and bending) and toughness (resistance to chipping, breaking and cracking) and edge wear are often as obvious as telling a stainless from a non-stainless steel in ordinary use.
 
I look at steel type much like I view a bolt-on exhaust system on a new 1000cc sportbike; it gives the owner some kind of bragging rights, I guess, but rather misses a key point.

In the case of sport bikes, it's easy and accurate enough to think of our motor as air pump; the more air we get to flow, the more HP / torque we achieve, and the faster the bike might be able to move. However: airflow has an input as well as an output. You can spend millions of dollars on the output side, but if the input side is choking off the airflow so much, then it just doesn't matter. The restrictive factor is the input - in most bikes these days, that means the air induction system. If that doesn't get opened up, well...what's the point other than economic stimulus?

Likewise with steel types. The end result - the edge - is a function of steel type, heat treatment, edge geometry, overall blade geometry, and probably more factors. In point of fact, I would rank steel type as relatively low on the list of factors influencing final performance of the blade. I believe Spyderco spent USD1M not on a facility to research steel types, but rather on a facility to study, analyze, and come to a better understanding of heat treatments of all steels.

I think that, again, steel type selection by the layman is a losing game played by suckers and the best thing it does is stimulate the economy. "Ooooh, lookie-lookie, my favorite knife is now made with s50000v; that must be better than the copy I have in my pocket used for opening envelopes and made from s30v. I mean, JUST LOOK AT THAT HUMONGOUS NUMBER!!!"
 
RLDubbya said:
I think that, again, steel type selection by the layman is a losing game played by suckers ...
Click to expand...


Say you work in a warehouse and have to cut up a lot of cardboard each day. You could get a Spyderco Military in CTS-XHP or a Spyderco Military in S110V. You think steel means nothing, so you go for the first. Your buddy has read Ankerson's thread on edge retention and goes for the S110V model. In actual testing, the CTS-XHP makes 240 cuts before dulling to a specific dullness. The S110V Military gets 1,080 cuts before it reaches that same level of dullness.

Your buddy goes all day without having to sharpen his Military. You have to sharpen yours 5 times during the day. The boss notices. Your buddy gets a raise. You get the boot.
 
Twindog said:
Say you work in a warehouse and have to cut up a lot of cardboard each day. You could get a Spyderco Military in CTS-XHP or a Spyderco Military in S110V. You think steel means nothing, so you go for the first. Your buddy has read Ankerson's thread on edge retention and goes for the S110V model. In actual testing, the CTS-XHP makes 240 cuts before dulling to a specific dullness. The S110V Military gets 1,080 cuts before it reaches that same level of dullness.

Your buddy goes all day without having to sharpen his Military. You have to sharpen yours 5 times during the day. The boss notices. Your buddy gets a raise. You get the boot.
Click to expand...

There's an impressive amount of conflation between the whole and its parts taking place in your statements Mr. TwinDog.

Allow me to attempt to illustrate that conflation by asking: does the supervisor give me the boot and my buddy a raise because I am using CTS-XHP, my buddy S110V - or does he base his actions on simple measurement of the output of each human as whole?

I could even make the case that this illustrates the idiocy of management: if the manager would look at the root cause of a valuable employee's (me) lowered output, the most cost-effective solution for the company is to purchase me a new knife. But, like you, the manager does not look at parts of the whole - he only looks at performance of the whole.

Going a step deeper, in your own words, "S30V is an excellent steel if heat treated properly -- fairly tough and very wear resistant -- but who ever knows what the heat treat is? It can be and is a chippy steel if not heat treated properly. I have S30V knives that chip easily and ones that don't."

So you do agree with me after all, and the type of steel doesn't matter. What matters is the behavior of the entire knife, including heat treating. Since we have no insight into heat treating, we cannot logically hold that this s110v is better than that s30v; after all, the s30v could simply be a victim of crappy heat treating. Perhaps that batch of steel was heat treated on Monday morning by a hungover worker.

Until such time as you can separate the whole from the parts with a required degree of accuracy, you cannot logically make any claim about the parts unless you have independent and verifiable knowledge.
 
RLDubbya said:
Until such time as you can separate the whole from the parts with a required degree of accuracy, you cannot logically make any claim about the parts unless you have independent and verifiable knowledge.
Click to expand...

Due to both knives being Spyderco branded, one can safely assume that they would require comparable percentages of acceptable HT output for each steel type. It is not like Spyderco would say that 98% of S30V have to be up to (Spydercos) standard, but only 93% of S110V have to be up to the standard that Spyderco set.

Because of this, we can infer that the vast majority of the knives put out is acceptable. This means that when you have two knives side by side, you have to assume that they are performing up to par. If one out-performs another, you can't immediately assume a poor HT (even though it is entirely possible) because the majority of them in the customers possession are treated adequately by the company. To just assume that one "lesser" alloy is performing less than another is solely due to a lesser quality HT, is asinine.
Some alloys have more abrasive wear resistance, some have less. Some have higher toughness, and some have less.

To say that a properly HT blade of S110V will have lesser wear resistance when compared to S30V (in clean cardboard) with all else being the same (geometry wise) is wrong.

TLDR:
Choose your alloy based on your needs and find out who HTs that alloy to the best of wallet.
Is S30V bad? It can be, but it isn't likely by now.
Is S110V bad? It can be, but isn't likely by now.
Same goes for 3V, 52100, M4, 440c, AEB-L, et al.

Some alloys like Maxamet may still have some growing pains, but I would equate that to the alloy still being "new to knives".
 
Last edited:
Use my pm2 in S30v again today. Cut an apple, some cardboard, whittled some very soft pine, and cut a few zip ties that were holding together some braided steel line. Now my edge could've ran into the metal after I cut threw the zip ties but I was cutting very soft so edge damage would be minimal to none.. just about my entire edge has damage. Rolls or microchips is my guess and it def won't even cut paper anymore..now I'll go home and sharpen it for the second time this week..
 
NJBillK said:
Due to both knives being Spyderco branded, one can safely assume that they would require comparable percentages of acceptable HT output for each steel type. It is not like Spyderco would say that 98% of S30V have to be up to (Spydercos) standard, but only 93% of S110V have to be up to the standard that Spyderco set.

Because of this, we can infer that the vast majority of the knives put out is acceptable. This means that when you have two knives side by side, you have to assume that they are performing up to par. If one out-performs another, you can't immediately assume a poor HT (even though it is entirely possible) because the majority of them in the customers possession are treated adequately by the company. To just assume that one "lesser" alloy is performing less than another is solely due to a lesser quality HT, is asinine.
Some alloys have more abrasive wear resistance, some have less. Some have higher toughness, and some have less.

To say that a properly HT blade of S110V will have lesser wear resistance when compared to S30V (in clean cardboard) with all else being the same (geometry wise) is wrong.

TLDR:
Choose your alloy based on your needs and find out who HTs that alloy to the best of wallet.
Is S30V bad? It can be, but it isn't likely by now.
Is S110V bad? It can be, but isn't likely by now.
Same goes for 3V, 52100, M4, 440c, AEB-L, et al.

Some alloys like Maxamet may still have some growing pains, but I would equate that to the alloy still being "new to knives".
Click to expand...

There's a lot here, a whole lot. I'm tired, and ready to give my mind a break, but: thank you for taking the time. I would like to ask you one question which might help me better understand.

Is it the case that heat treatment A (HT-A), used for S30V, is the same as Heat Treatment B (HT-B), used for S110V? If so, that goes a long ways towards helping me understand; I thought that there was a unique and different process for HT-A and HT-B.

Furthermore, I thought that it could be the case that a company (keeping it hypothetical for now, let's call it HideHerBloat) who wanted to be truly state-of-the-art would use a heat treatment company for S30v who specializes in HT-A and has developed certain proprietary processes for HT-A only. HideHerBloat would also choose a different company for the HT-B process on its S110v, and that company likewise would specialize in the HT-B process only.

If you are holding that HT-A and HT-B are fundamentally identical, that's super. Can you point me towards solid, referenced research material on metallurgical processes for heat treatment that might teach me more about this HT-A and HT-B?
 
There are many scientific tests that show large differences in performance between steels, even when other factors are controlled. There are published CATRA tests on toughness of various types, strength and edge retention, all where confounding variables are controlled. There are huge differences in stain resistance. Go to Crucible's website and look at how its own steels are compared for various characteristics.

Spyderco has produced many Mules in various steels that the company manufacturers that can give you a comparison between steels where geometry is held constant.

Look at Ankerson's tests on edge wear.

Look at how few alloys are used in the Bladesport competition.

Yes, heat treat is important. Yes, geometry is important. Yes, ergos are important. Yes, the cutting task is important. But steel alloy, independent of these other factors, is also important. How this is even an issue debated on Bladeforums is a mystery to me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top