SAK with a better steel

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patrickguignot

Joined
Sep 10, 2015
Messages
463
What if you want a SAK...but with a better steel than the usual 1.4110 of a Victorinox?
I can suggest at least 3 choices. From top to bottom:

Swiza D06 (with 440C steel at 57HRC).
MKM Campo 7 (with Magnacut at 61-63HRC)
Fox Multitool Deer Horn 6 (with M390 at 59-61HRC)

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The Magnacut blade of the MKM is excellent. Better than the M390 of the Fox that is a bit on the soft side. And both are MUCH better than the 440C of the Swiza and the 1.4110 of my Victorinox SAKs.

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It's interesting that the MKM Campo 7 has MagnaCut while the (supposedly newer) MKM Campo 8 I have is M390.
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Edit: I mentioned this later in the thread, but wanted to add it here also. The above was initially incorrect. The 8 is not necessarily newer than the 7. The number refers to the model within the series and not to the generation of that series. Perhaps that is similar to the S# in the Evo Grip series.
 
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Nice.

There is also the Boker Tech Tool series with 12C27, which is basically AEB-L. No Magnacut, but comes in many configurations, has a pocket clip and screws and is price competitive with the SAK.

And then there are the Boker Tree Hunter Mono, Trio and Quadro that are a little larger, have a locking main blade and come in CPM Cruwear šŸ„°
 
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patrickguignot said:
I think the previous collection (Campo and Malga models) use M390 but the newer collection is using Magnacut.
See here for a presentation at Blade Show 2023 :
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0DytZsbQ3c
Click to expand...
That's cool. Thanks for sharing. I had been thinking of the number as 'generation' while it seems they are the 'model' in that series.

Edit: I updated the above post with the photo mention this also.
 
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mnblade said:
What makes 440C, Magnacut and M39M3 "better"?
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440C is marginally better at abrasion resistance and a bit harder (56HRC vs 57HRC) which is better for resisting edge deformation.

M390 and Magnacut are massively better at abrasion resistance (due to vanadium carbides) and are much harder.
In the case of Magnacut the toughness is also very good (so the super important ratio hardness/toughness is excellent) and the rust resistance is also top notch (beaten only by LC200N and H1).

The 1.4110 steel of Victorinox SAKs is rust resistant, with good toughness and, most importantly, very cheap. That's not a bad steel for a SAK but it can't beat a super steel like Magnacut.

There is an excellent discussion in the last video of Knife Steel Nerds about what is the most important property for knife steel :
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYTp6F_qy6U&t=747s
 
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patrickguignot said:
440C is marginally better at abrasion resistance and a bit harder (56HRC vs 57HRC) which is better for resisting edge deformation.

M390 and Magnacut are massively better at abrasion resistance (due of vanadium carbides) and are much harder.
In the case of Magnacut the toughness is also very good (so the super important ratio hardness/toughness is excellent) and the rust resistance is also top notch (beaten only by LC200N and H1).

The 1.4110 steel of Victorinox SAKs is rust resistant, with good toughness and, most importantly, very cheap. That's not a bad steel for a SAK but it can't beat a super steel like Magnacut.

There is an excellent discussion in the last video of Knife Steel Nerds about what is the most important property for knife steel :
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYTp6F_qy6U&t=747s
Click to expand...
Abrasion resistance = "harder to sharpen, a SiC or diamond hone/plate "may" (probably will) be required."

The world over, the majority of folks that buy a SAK don't care about the (air quotes) "latest and greatest" steel, or possibly having to strop or sharpen their knife each day. Many use them in the field where specialized sharpening equipment (SiC stones or enery cloth, or diamond plates) are not available, or are exremely expensive.

Us "knife nuts" are probably less than 0.005% (1/2 of 1 percent) of Victorinox's annual sales.
They could put out a line with any or all of the steels you mention. However, their core customers would likely not purchase them.

Question:
When did Victorinox start using German Krupp 1.1441 steel?
I was under the impression they used a Swiss "Sandvik" steel. (I don't know (or care, to be honest) which steel they use. Whatever it is they cut everything I need my various Swiss Army knives to cut (or peel, if used to field dress/skin small/medium size game and/or fowl.) and the various tools don't twist/break or chip.

I don't "need" a "high abrasion resistant" blade.
I have a couple with S30V, CPM154,D2, and 5160. They rarely get carried or used. Fear of chipping the edge or breaking the blade if something hard is hit while cutting, slicing or whittling is just one reason.
Spending 20 to 30 minutes (or longer) to sharpen (every blade regardless of the steel will eventually need sharpened) seems a bit silly when steels like 440A/420HC/ and 10xx/1095 can have the working edge restored in 5 minutes or less, often just by stropping.

Putting a "razor edge" on is a waste of time. That "razor edge" is gone and you're using the working edge after the first or second cut, if working with anything even moderately hard, like rawhide or "soft woods" or cork and most foams. and rubber used for automotive hoses, or reinforced food grade hoses.
 
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I'm fine with Victorinox's standard steel because it always finishes the work I need it to do. I have plenty of other knives in Maxamet, K390, Rex45, S30V, S45VN, Sandvik, D2, K110, etc etc and Ive gotten to the point where I prefer low drama with my daily drivers, which is why the knives with fancy steels are going to get sold soon... I just dont carry them anymore.

Geometry is what cuts, and even without a crispy edge SAK blades are thin enough to still do a lot of common work with relative ease until they can get touched back up... and they sharpen up very fast. I honestly hope Victorinox keeps doing what they're doing, it seems like every company that jumps in on supersteel fever eventually loses their minds with pricing.
 
G Sakai with a ZDP-189 blade
Fox Vulpis has some with an M390 blade.

But if I were using the knife that much, I'd carry a purpose built knife.
 
I never carry a SAK as a primary knife- in fact it is usually in a console or bag. I say that because I have never needed to push the main blade on one past what the regular steel managed fine. I have field dressed a white-tail with a Swiss Champ (on a bet from a buddy) and it did fine other than being a PIA to clean up.

I love the MagnaCut fixed blade I have, and I think it is great their are options. Some models mentioned in this thread I was not familiar with at all.
 
afishhunter said:
Abrasion resistance = "harder to sharpen, a SiC or diamond hone/plate "may" (probably will) be required." (...) diamond plates are not available, or are exremely expensive.
Click to expand...

A double sided (fine/coarse) diafold sharpener is $32 online.
Yes I agree that the vast majority of users don't care about the steel of their SAKs. But for us knives nuts it's cool to have alternatives with better steels.
 
afishhunter said:
I have a couple with S30V, CPM154,D2, and 5160. They rarely get carried or used. Fear of chipping the edge or breaking the blade if something hard is hit while cutting, slicing or whittling is just one reason.
Click to expand...

I too, notice that when I need a knife to do a dirty, tough, difficult job I always reach for a "normal" knife (SAK, 110 Buck, SOG Flash2) to get it done. The high dollar knives are not to be abused.

Which is kind of stupid when you think about it.....

šŸ˜
 
patrickguignot said:
A double sided (fine/coarse) diafold sharpener is $32 online.
Click to expand...
For some, $32 (USD) is little. Young Folks with a full-time job that make a good wage or salary, for example.
For some, $32 (USD) is a lot. Folks working a part-time minimum wage job, and/or Old Things that are retired on a low fixed monthly income, and/or in assisted living or a skilled nursing faclity, for example.

Assisted living: Regardless of your retirement + (if applicable) disability payment, you have $135 (USD) to $140 (USD) a month after paying rent for personal purchases.
Every penny of the annual COLA adjustment is added to the rent on 01-01-(year).
My retirement and disability combined is under $1,000 (USD) a month. I'm also in assisted living.
(I don't have a car. Can't afford one ... nor the registration ... gas, ... insurance, ... maintenance ...)

Skilled nursing facility? They cost a bit more. You get to keep $40 (USD) a month after rent for personal purchases.
Every penny of the annual COLA adjustment is added to the rent on 01-01-(year).

In some countries, $32 (USD) is a lot of money.
 
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afishhunter said:
I don't "need" a "high abrasion resistant" blade.
I have a couple with S30V, CPM154,D2, and 5160. They rarely get carried or used. Fear of chipping the edge or breaking the blade if something hard is hit while cutting, slicing or whittling is just one reason.
Spending 20 to 30 minutes (or longer) to sharpen (every blade regardless of the steel will eventually need sharpened) seems a bit silly when steels like 440A/420HC/ and 10xx/1095 can have the working edge restored in 5 minutes or less, often just by stropping.
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I'm a little confused as to why you put 5160 with the "high abrasion resistance / hard to sharpen / brittle" steels.
 
Olumin said:
I'm a little confused as to why you put 5160 with the "high abrasion resistance / hard to sharpen / brittle" steels.
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A little more resistant to an Arkansas stone than 10xx. (tho that might be due to Mr. Bos'/Buck's heat treat?)
Also seems to hold a edge longer than my 1095 blades. (again, might be due to the heat treat?)
I'm not sure about the brittlness of 5160. It may not be very. I heard it is a popular steel for swords. I don't know how hard the sword makers run it, though.
I should have used "and/or" in my original comment.
 
afishhunter said:
A little more resistant to an Arkansas stone than 10xx. (tho that might be due to Mr. Bos'/Buck's heat treat?)
Also seems to hold a edge longer than my 1095 blades. (again, might be due to the heat treat?)
I'm not sure about the brittlness of 5160. It may not be very. I heard it is a popular steel for swords. I don't know how hard the sword makers run it, though.
I should have used "and/or" in my original comment.
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Sounds about right, but it should still be easy to maintain all-in-all. 5160 is generally considered one of the toughest blade steels out there. Very popular for sword blades, kukris, stuff like that.
For swords its generally run at 50-55HRC, which is quite typical for most sword steels nowadays.
 
Wirelessjunkie said:
I'm fine with Victorinox's standard steel because it always finishes the work I need it to do. I have plenty of other knives in Maxamet, K390, Rex45, S30V, S45VN, Sandvik, D2, K110, etc etc and Ive gotten to the point where I prefer low drama with my daily drivers, which is why the knives with fancy steels are going to get sold soon... I just dont carry them anymore.

Geometry is what cuts, and even without a crispy edge SAK blades are thin enough to still do a lot of common work with relative ease until they can get touched back up... and they sharpen up very fast. I honestly hope Victorinox keeps doing what they're doing, it seems like every company that jumps in on supersteel fever eventually loses their minds with pricing.
Click to expand...

THIS!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
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