Samurai Sword Help Please

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Mar 30, 2006
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146
I posted this sword on another sword forum awhile ago and got some good information. I would appreciate some info on the mounts and is there a year in the signature. The translation I got there was Gunsui sword made by Kanekuni with no year. The other side of the tang is unmarked. I was told it was from pre WW2 and probably remounted. Then I read that high ranking Japanese officers got the gunsui swords and were allowed these types of mounts during the war. Also, what kind of handle wrap is this. It's a hard black substance. The hamon is pretty much straight. Thank you
 

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I posted this sword on another sword forum awhile ago and got some good information. I would appreciate some info on the mounts and is there a year in the signature. The translation I got there was Gunsui sword made by Kanekuni with no year. The other side of the tang is unmarked. I was told it was from pre WW2 and probably remounted. Then I read that high ranking Japanese officers got the gunsui swords and were allowed these types of mounts during the war. Also, what kind of handle wrap is this. It's a hard black substance. The hamon is pretty much straight. Thank you
Kanekuni is a sword smith of Mino province.
It could be observed as an early Muromachi period (1336-1392) if the signature was engraved correctly.

At first glance, it seems to be a Yamato school sword but from the filing pattern on the nakago, we could determine that it is a Mino sword.

It is katate-uchi shape in saya and seems to be a nice and thick blade which alone would command about $9-12k or more with Nokubetsu Hozan papers, but the signature is not on par.

The Saya is definitely early 1900’s WWI (sword sheath), about 1870, the feudal system is abolished and most swords that carried on, will have a notably shortened tang (usually at the 2nd meguki) they were often hidden in this way as walking sticks in full wooden enclosures or Shirasaya. Wood Saya and Handle (Tsuka) disguised as 1.

Since we don’t have a full tang photo, we could say 1 or the other, it is possible the sword was hidden during the Westernization of Japan and was made by a student of Kanekuni, if intact.

It looks as if the sageo (handle wrap) is lacquered black leather, as silk would have been used in the time of Kanekuni, we can certainly say this is not original. I cannot say who made your mounting decorations, but they are not pre WWI…

The base of this Saya where sheath meets Tsuba is wrapped in bronze with the Kanji “Mortal Instrument” inlaid in brass or gold… This to me says, all your fittings are from the mount or remount of this blade, seeing as none are more or less substantial in patina.

My opinion of your fittings is that these (Koshirae) were made at the turn of the century 1914-18… When the blade was mounted/remounted. Basically Edo period koshirae command from $600-1200. Blades from $1-2000.

Total sword as is appraisal (no Nihinto papers) is approximately $2-3,000… Without low light flash photography showing the blades actual attributes or NBHK papers I’m afraid this could be a forgery and nothing else can be said.

Since metals generally cannot be carbon dated without inclusions of once living organisms, metal dating is nearly impossible and visually ascertained… If the Saya (Scabbard) and Tsuka (wooden Hilt covering) were original, they could be dated and lead to positive identification.

As it is Kanekuni’s signature is very much un-like yours, so at the very best the maker was a student, at the very least, this in Edo period katana, which I am more likely to recommend, as the Kanji are large and boxy not small fluid strokes as would be seen 500 years prior.

FYI, 1136-1300, only one ana (hole in hilt for mekago (decorative menuki) is seen. At the time it was not perceived that leveraging a swords follow through had anything to do with hilt length… In about 1320, we see the traditional katana take shape… Where blades were made in accordance to a Warrior’s Step (Inseam was equivalent to blade length) and Tsuka to Reach (a warrior’s forearm length became the handle)… Therefore 2 ana (holes in hilt). Cutting length apx. 28” hilt 7.5-8, Tsuka 9.5-10”.
 
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Thank you for the in depth answer about my sword. This link was given to me a few years ago on another sword forum. Showing a tree of makers, and Kanekuni was at the bottom for year 1938. They said being gunsui steel that he was probably the maker.I am not knowledgeable on Japanese swords. I can take a photo tomorrow of the tang and I don't think it has been cut down, but not sure. Here is the link Thanks again http://www.nihontocraft.com/Kanetomo.html
 
I pulled the handle to show tang length hope that helps.
 

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Thanks for the effort, your blade is not an original Kanekuni… Nor I believe an original student without blade photos… In my opinion it is an Edo tribute. As you can see the signatures are really quite different. It does have the single ana (meguki/menuki hole), and original tang shape without cut-off… But the tang has very little patina (Iron Age or oxidation). So my original view stands… But I would love to see some blade photos, lights out with a flash…

If you’re interested I could give you more info after that.

This was previously stated “Kanekuni” so the blade info came from that specific maker… The link you shared states “Kanetomo”, in whoever shared that link, I’m inclined to agree… And WWI-2 swords are not worth much apx $800-1200.

Me personally, my specialty are swords 12-1800… After that so many schools and techniques were lost… Any katana made before 1828, would be hard pressed to make NBTHK papers (Nihon Bijutsu Token Hozon Kyokai), loosely translated to The Society for Preservation of Japanese Art Swords…

That being, because at the time Japan was under the boom of industrialization, everything made was a copy… How well done a copy, is really up to what I see of blade photos you provide.
 
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I will try to get some good photos of the blade tomorrow in the sunlight. This was on the link I sent you . Oshigata 252 is of a blade by Hiromitsu. The mei is 'Motte Gunsuihagane Hiromitsu Saku Kore'. It means that Gunsuihagane was used by Hiromitsu to make this sword. Oshigata 292 is the last of the four. The mei is 'Gunsui Kanekuni Saku'. This might be Kanetomo's fourth pupil. More information could be obtained from these swords if they became available for hands-on examination
 
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Not sunlight… Take them tonight, curtains drawn, lights out, flash only… This will best reveal your hamon (tempering) and blade grain (carbon deposits in folds).

NBHTK are so hard to get for any WWI-2 sword in America… “Why”, 1st any sword sent to Japan is marked in-transit by ex-ray and destroyed (Period). 2nd this means you have fly there, sword as carry-on, declaimed personal property through x-ray and must show NBTHK registration or (destroyed)..

In my personal opinion, the previous assessment is correct… WWII… In utterly prestige shape $5-6k… You’re looking $800-12,000..

What I’m getting is you want historic value… I think my predecessor got it spot on. A few centuries out of my wheelhouse… But I can say how your blades held up with a few pics…
 
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I hope this is okay. Photos makes the blade look stained, but in bright light you just see the hamon, no stains or marks on the blade other than the steel pattern.
 

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I'm confused. According to the other forum, they said pre ww2 signed "gunsui kanekuni made this" with no date. They said since it said gunsui that was a new steel and made around 1938 according to the link they gave me and I gave to you with the pupil kanekuni making my sword.
 
So these are the master makers from 12-1500. They had students of course that either completely understood the practice and possibly elevated it, maybe 3%, the rest same to less quality, fading out over centuries…

I don’t wish to speak badly about your katana, but you can see the break between Bo-hi and cutting edge, your hamon in parts rolls over the Bo-hi. The cloudy differential between thick and thin clay on the blade… There are clods above the Bo-hi… (Bo-hi is where the sword grind takes place from flat to angled)…

Any student of one of the aforementioned masters would have beat near to death after doing this and then sent back to polish (to learn what’s expected).

If you look closely these swords all one thing in common, the hamon is between the edge and Bo-hi…. What they do not share in common are basically 2 things, line of hamon and Sori (curvature)…

Sori is achieved by tapering the blade, a full even taper from hilt to tip achieves a best break, more curved at hilt, less to tip. Katanas are made of two metals soft interior hard cladding (most blocking blows are taken by the area closest to the hands) so the most curve should be nearest the hilt.

Basic fencing, I’m not going to block with the tip of my sword, it makes it far too easy for my opponent to roll through my block and and deliver a piercing blow, if I block low towards the hilt my opponent must step back… The -st 12” of a sword from hilt tip should be more soft metal… Because soft metal quenches 1st and causes a Katana’s harder cladded material to bend to it during quench this curves hard… Without tactical experience our 1st makers were unaware of this… So older swords towards Masamune take up this shape.

Now let’s talk hamon.. You can see there are so many differences in hamon (differential clay treatment).

Saguha almost no hamon… Then we begin to see what your sword exhibits, a kriss-cross technique.

Let me explain: A sword is brought to its basic geometry, quenched then coated in 3-4mm of clay, the smith then removes 1-2mm from the cutting edge and it is then fired in the furnace. The heavier clay protects the base from heat, while the thinner clay gardens the cutting edge. In 1st period no finess was taken, then some and somewhere in the middle after clay was removed the maker made X-Strokes with the utility that removed it, actually adding clay over the temper line (what you have)… It wasn’t until later in the period this was ascertains as useless… Kuneshuge & later Muramasa and his student perfected hamon…

The trick was to push the clay away from the edge making a dune between the the cutting edge and Bo-hi… (hard edge, super soft, soft) by heat treat.

The maker of your sword knew virtually nothing of this… From what I can see there is virtually no blade grain, and the hamon is amateurish at best.
 
Lights Out! This is what a masterwork sword should look like… Full grain, hamon between Bo-hi and cutting edge, dark shadow revealing pearlite behind the hamon.

But it’s Cool for a WWII sword (amateur copy), most if not all of these methods of hamon were lost in or about 1600, watered down one student to the next.
 
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I'm confused. According to the other forum, they said pre ww2 signed "gunsui kanekuni made this" with no date. They said since it said gunsui that was a new steel and made around 1938 according to the link they gave me and I gave to you with the pupil kanekuni making my sword.
Don’t be confused… Kunekuni was a maker from 1336-1392… (You said Kunekuni, so I replied to that, after that you gave me a link). Your sword was made by a very different Kunekuni in 1938. This is a last name or surname, his grandmaster 100 years earlier 3-4 generations was Kiribuchi Mataishi… 2-3 generations later Tomahagne was no longer produced… So your sword is out of NBTHK, because it was produced by modern methods.

Gunsui or Gunsuihagane is the method of steel making your sword was fabricated in… Basically all the masters of Tomahagne and Bushido were dead or in hiding, during the early militarized communist era of Japan… So some Scientists (not smiths) developed the method.
 
I was wondering why it's not dated and why that type of fittings for that time period around WW2. He became a pupil in 1938. Thank you for your help.
 
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I was wondering why it's not dated and why that type of fittings for that time period around WW2. He became a pupil in 1938. Thank you for your help.
In the tradition of Japanese sword making no sword was ever dated, a makers mark is usually as close as you’ll get, like an artist signature on a painting… The same concept was utilized even when Tomahagne was out of production.

Sword fittings (koshirae), In the Edo era (1603-1867), when people lived in peace without having to worry about fighting big battles, sword fittings became more decorative than ever before. They started incorporating a wide range of polychrome metals such as gold, silver, shakudo (alloy of copper and small amount i.e.1.5-10% of gold), shibuichi (alloy of copper and silver, usually less than percent 30) and brass, as well as advanced inlaying and carving skills. This was near the end of traditional sword making in Japan…

There were two types of koshirae maker, the sword smith, a student of the smith, or a specialist (who only made koshirae). At the time your sword was produced there were only examples, not makers. Swords were being destroyed not preserved. Katana we’re not being made for a samurai, specially for him, they were mass produced for soldiers it was a total breakdown of the artistic form.
 
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I posted this sword on another sword forum awhile ago and got some good information. I would appreciate some info on the mounts and is there a year in the signature. The translation I got there was Gunsui sword made by Kanekuni with no year. The other side of the tang is unmarked. I was told it was from pre WW2 and probably remounted. Then I read that high ranking Japanese officers got the gunsui swords and were allowed these types of mounts during the war. Also, what kind of handle wrap is this. It's a hard black substance. The hamon is pretty much straight. Thank you

I guess you are confused. After reading all the BS contained in the posts above I don't know where to start.

FIRST: FORGET EVERYTHING YOU READ ABOVE !! NEARLY EVERY WORD IS MISINFORMATION AND COMPLETE NONSENSE !!!!

Let's stick to known facts.
Background: Your sword is a Gunsui-to. Gunsui was a process for making steel in an electric furnace. It was developed in the 1930's by Miyaguchi Takeo and was produced by the Gunma Suiden Co., a hydro electric company. Therefore, your sword could not be any older than that!

Mei: Your sword is signed Gunsui Kanekuni Saku. This means it was made by Kanekuni from Gusui steel.
This gunsui steel was given to famous smith, Ryuminsai Kanetomo (1926-1989). Kanetomo is the only smith who worked with gunsui steel that there is any information on that I am aware of.
Kanetomo had several students, one of them being Kanekuni.

Date: It is very common for swords to be undated and unsigned as well (mumei).
I reiterate that Gunsui steel did not exist until the 1930's.

Koshirae: Your koshirae looks to be somewhat mismatched. The saya appears to be a gunto saya, though due to the distant photos I am not 100% certain. The tsuka and fittings are civillian. The tsuka may be lacquered leather or cloth (?). At one time it may have been in Gunto (army) mounts, again not uncommon to find them in this state.

A few additional tidbits:
The Kanekuni name was used by many sword smiths. Basic kantei narrows your drastically.
One glance at your sword tells me it not an older sword.
Swords were dated as well as undated. Just as they were signed and unsigned.
Tamahagane is still produced and used today.
There are no Bo-hi pictured in this entire post. Yours or the riddler's. Understand the riddlers lack of knowledge and misinformation provided to you.
Many WW II era Gendaito are and have been papered by the NBTHK.
Swords which fall outside the definition of Nihonto by the Japanese Ministry of Education may be refused a torokusho, and returned to you. They can not destroy your property.
Many, many swords made after 1828 are papered. Look up Yamaura Kiyomaro.

I hope you read this and forget the BS you were provided.
 
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