San Mai laminated steel

[AshesFall]

You are missing the point. Laminated steel doesn't make sense because katanas used it. Katanas used laminated steel because it made sense.
How was I missing the point? I was just agreeing to your post of "I think lantanas were constructed similarly" and didn't know there was a point to miss in that statement. I see what you're saying now though, since the Japanese used it as an old method to strengthen steel it doesn't necessarily need to be done in modem times due to us having stronger steels without using that method. Makes sense.
It seems you pose topics and open threads to start debate, and that's cool...but there's really no debate on how laminated steel functions or what it brings to knife construction.

I created this thread as a "possible debate", but mainly to be informational to anyone that was curious about laminated steel. To seek opinions and learn more myself. I've only been learning about knives for about a year now, so no, I'm not as knowledgeable as guys that have many many years of knowledge inside their cranium. I feel you get the wrong impression of me and I understand not everyone will like my style lol

 

[AshesFall]

The tough steel is not used in the core of a laminated steel.

It's true they laminate it with softer steel panels to make the harder steel core tougher, which is the main point, but it's still possible to laminate an already tough steel even if it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Hence why I said in an up above post that 3v is already awesome on it's own and doesn't need laminated. Just fun to think about for some people I guess and I'll bet people would still buy it even if it makes no sense.

 

[Alberta Ed]

I believe katanas were constructed similarly.

Actually, traditional Japanese swords had a harder outside steel layer folded around a softer/tougher inner core. NOVA had an excellent documentary on how they are made: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/swor-nf.html

 

[AshesFall]

Actually, traditional Japanese swords had a harder outside steel layer folded around a softer/tougher inner core. NOVA had an excellent documentary on how they are made: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/swor-nf.html

Good info and thanks for the link.

 

[Mecha]

Actually, traditional Japanese swords had a harder outside steel layer folded around a softer/tougher inner core. NOVA had an excellent documentary on how they are made: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/swor-nf.html

Bunch of different ways to do it.

I think san mai is the coolest steel lamination for a blade!

Wariha Tetsu is pretty much how this titanium multi-alloy katana blade is constructed:

 

[Ourorboros]

Great post, thanks.

Historically Europeans didn't need to bother with fancy smanchy metal fabrication like the Japanese did because Europeans invented better steel that didn't all that work then or now.

Europeans didn't have consistently better steel until industrial times. The best steels were from Sweden, Spain, and I believe Austria, which had relatively pure iron sources. European metallurgy certainly didn't make sense until the scientific revolution. Of course better is compared to the previous steels, Japan is still considered a leader in steels, as is Sweden.
The simple reason is again - energy source. With hotter fires you can purify your iron more, leading to less inclusions and problematic alloys. Europeans also had less efficient bellows, unlike Chinese push/pull bellows which lead to cooler fires.
This is in fact why the Chinese did not pursue laminated steels more - they had purer iron, leading to less need for laminated steels. With pure iron, they could add set amount of charcoal (carbon) to iron, creating steels of different grades. Lamination went to Japan via Korea and taken to a much higher level.

Having cruder steel is why, relatively speaking, European swords are considered more like sharp crowbars compared to Katanas.

 

[Mecha]

Europeans didn't have consistently better steel until industrial times. The best steels were from Sweden, Spain, and I believe Austria, which had relatively pure iron sources. European metallurgy certainly didn't make sense until the scientific revolution. Of course better is compared to the previous steels, Japan is still considered a leader in steels, as is Sweden.
The simple reason is again - energy source. With hotter fires you can purify your iron more, leading to less inclusions and problematic alloys. Europeans also had less efficient bellows, unlike Chinese push/pull bellows which lead to cooler fires.
This is in fact why the Chinese did not pursue laminated steels more - they had purer iron, leading to less need for laminated steels. With pure iron, they could add set amount of charcoal (carbon) to iron, creating steels of different grades. Lamination went to Japan via Korea and taken to a much higher level.

Having cruder steel is why, relatively speaking, European swords are considered more like sharp crowbars compared to Katanas.

Bunch'a hearsay.

 

[Houlahound]

Europeans didn't have consistently better steel until industrial times. The best steels were from Sweden, Spain, and I believe Austria, which had relatively pure iron sources. European metallurgy certainly didn't make sense until the scientific revolution. Of course better is compared to the previous steels, Japan is still considered a leader in steels, as is Sweden.
The simple reason is again - energy source. With hotter fires you can purify your iron more, leading to less inclusions and problematic alloys. Europeans also had less efficient bellows, unlike Chinese push/pull bellows which lead to cooler fires.
This is in fact why the Chinese did not pursue laminated steels more - they had purer iron, leading to less need for laminated steels. With pure iron, they could add set amount of charcoal (carbon) to iron, creating steels of different grades. Lamination went to Japan via Korea and taken to a much higher level.

Having cruder steel is why, relatively speaking, European swords are considered more like sharp crowbars compared to Katanas.

That's my point, Europeans evolved metallurgy to the point of creating better steel. The old Japanese methods and materials were surpassed by European science. The Katana is literally a sharpened crow bar by design.

 

[marcinek]

It's true they laminate it with softer steel panels to make the harder steel core tougher, which is the main point, but it's still possible to laminate an already tough steel even if it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Hence why I said in an up above post that 3v is already awesome on it's own and doesn't need laminated. Just fun to think about for some people I guess and I'll bet people would still buy it even if it makes no sense.

Why would people who know enough to know what 3V is, buy a laminated 3V steel if it made no sense?

That is my point about your hypotheticals. They are artificial.

You could laminate 3V with an outer coating of Kraft American Cheese Food Singles too...so what?

Cheese laminate vs CS San Mai Showdown!

 

[Houlahound]

Can we all agree it is part marketing and part practical and completely unnecessary .

Buy one if you care to, pass on it if you don't.

 

[Hurrul]

Can we all agree it is part marketing and part practical and completely unnecessary.

How can this method of construction simultaneously be practical and unnecessary?

I do agree that current marketing does lean on this method to sell products, like Shun kitchen knives for example.

However, I have laminated kitchen blades from Japanese makers that have been constructing tools in this manner for centuries and the practical benefit is that the blade should be more resilient since the core steel is hardened quite high (commonly in the 62 to 64+ hrc range), is very thin at the edge and thus can't take much lateral strain or knocking around through out years of use in a kitchen environment.

Also, some outer laminates will be stainless and serve a practical purpose to resist corrosion of the often, non stainless core steel. VG-10 is popular in kitchen knives, is quite stainless and likely you could get away with out a laminate for rust protection, but you would still have a very thin piece of high hardness steel exposed to the potential rigors of a kitchen environment.

I think laminate steel construction might be unneeded for some steels - AEB-L, 19C27, R2 are examples that will often show up in Japanese cutlery with out being laminates. Likely there are others that could start out as thin stock that is then taken down to very acute edge angles, and does not need the support of a tougher steel supporting the sides of the harder core steel.

I guess I answered my earlier question - sometimes it's practical depending on the steel, corrosion issues, and hardness, sometimes it's more marketing than anything else.

 

[AshesFall]

Bunch of different ways to do it.

I think san mai is the coolest steel lamination for a blade!

Wariha Tetsu is pretty much how this titanium multi-alloy katana blade is constructed:

Great info and thanks. That's a beautiful katana btw.

 

[AshesFall]

Why would people who know enough to know what 3V is, buy a laminated 3V steel if it made no sense?

That is my point about your hypotheticals. They are artificial.

You could laminate 3V with an outer coating of Kraft American Cheese Food Singles too...so what?

Cheese laminate vs CS San Mai Showdown!

Maybe because people buy things everyday that make absolutely no sense. Maybe because marketing and the "cool factor" they advertise still does this to sell certain products and it actually works. If the marketing is smart people will buy anything.

Well my "so called" "Artificial Hypotheticals" must be amusing you somewhat right? Hence your interest in commenting on them? lol. I'm actually just a curious minded person who is just learning through different opinions. I have a curiosity, I ask opinions and learn from it no matter how "artificial" it may seem to others.

Cheese laminated 3v vs CS San Mai? Now you're talking! That's actually a good artificial hypothetical that I haven't even thought of! Can somebody do a knife vs knife test on this please? I'm putting my money on the cheese laminated 3v lol

 

[jlauffer]

Surprised CS hasn't showed up yet to tell us to cease and desist using the term San Mai

 

[DeadboxHero]

Maybe because people buy things everyday that make absolutely no sense. Maybe because marketing and the "cool factor" they advertise still does this to sell certain products and it actually works. If the marketing is smart people will buy anything.

Well my "so called" "Artificial Hypotheticals" must be amusing you somewhat right? Hence your interest in commenting on them? lol. I'm actually just a curious minded person who is just learning through different opinions. I have a curiosity, I ask opinions and learn from it no matter how "artificial" it may seem to others.

Cheese laminated 3v vs CS San Mai? Now you're talking! That's actually a good artificial hypothetical that I haven't even thought of! Can somebody do a knife vs knife test on this please? I'm putting my money on the cheese laminated 3v lol

A steel can be plenty tough without the need to San Mai. Thin San Mai will be prone to bending and staying bent. The cool factor is a stainless jacket on carbon steel. At the end of day, I'd be more concerned with other factors and variables than chasing advantages and disadvantages with San Mai.
Geometry is the biggest factor for durability anyways.

 

[Bigfattyt]

I tend too like them as I own a few Fallknivens and have no complaints. I ran across a destruction video some time back and that old A1 he tested was tough and while the pointy tip did break off, the blade itself was broken in half finally but still held together by the outer core. The guy testing the A1 said this is one tough son of a bi%&#. I'm still waiting for someone to put a 3V core in a laminated blade that would be the best of both worlds possibly.

I'm not sure you would gain much by doing cpm3v laminated.

It is already very tough, and while not stainless, has been pretty rust resistant in my uses.



To OP, I have owned and used a San mai Trailmaster. In years of chopping ir served well. No complaints. But at the price point, I'm not sure I would not just buy a custom, or several other brands.

I was not a big fan of the krayton handle. Ir definitely softened over time. They may use something different now.

I had a Busse with resiprine C handle material and found it to be superior. Much tougher than the Trailmaster handle.

I wish now, that I had handled it in stacked leather, rather than selling the Trailmaster.

I really enjoy the look of the Fallkniven stacked leather handles.

 

[C-TAC]

I have two SOG Vulcans. One is all VG-10 with black coating, the other is satin VG-10 San Mai. Should the all VG-10 version be superior to the San Mai? The cutting edges are identical, but you get a lot more VG-10 with the first one. Shouldn't that make it better?
Maybe for SOG it's just a cool looking, cost saving process.

 

[C-TAC]

Is there a way to make the line between core and cladding more visible? It's faint on my SOG, but very prominent on my Mcusta.

 

[AshesFall]

I'm not sure you would gain much by doing cpm3v laminated.

It is already very tough, and while not stainless, has been pretty rust resistant in my uses.



To OP, I have owned and used a San mai Trailmaster. In years of chopping ir served well. No complaints. But at the price point, I'm not sure I would not just buy a custom, or several other brands.

I was not a big fan of the krayton handle. Ir definitely softened over time. They may use something different now.

I had a Busse with resiprine C handle material and found it to be superior. Much tougher than the Trailmaster handle.

I wish now, that I had handled it in stacked leather, rather than selling the Trailmaster.

I really enjoy the look of the Fallkniven stacked leather handles.

I don't mind the krayton handles too much, they're grippy enough, but I could see years of hard use wearing them down. I do agree a stacked leather handle would look real nice though and I actually might take this into consideration someday.

 

[d762nato]

I'm not sure you would gain much by doing cpm3v laminated.
It is already very tough, and while not stainless, has been pretty rust resistant in my uses.

Yes I guess I'm dreaming again as I've never owned a 3v blade before. I've owned a few Busse's as well and have a Tor in a laminated vg10 and a MB in laminated Cos steel with the Thermorun handle and it's harder/tougher than the kraton stuff.



To OP, I have owned and used a San mai Trailmaster. In years of chopping ir served well. No complaints. But at the price point, I'm not sure I would not just buy a custom, or several other brands.

I was not a big fan of the krayton handle. Ir definitely softened over time. They may use something different now.

I had a Busse with resiprine C handle material and found it to be superior. Much tougher than the Trailmaster handle.

I wish now, that I had handled it in stacked leather, rather than selling the Trailmaster.

I really enjoy the look of the Fallkniven stacked leather handles.

I don't mind the krayton handles too much, they're grippy enough, but I could see years of hard use wearing them down. I do agree a stacked leather handle would look real nice though and I actually might take this into consideration someday.

While I do like the leather handled knives with a passion the Fallkniven Thermorun handles seem to be tougher/harder and very gripy. I think the leather may be slicker though when its all said and done.