Sharpening with belt sander

I figured he was a joke. He told me spyderco and Benchmade are overrated and that I should look at his non name china brand knives that cost $10 because they have better steel, even tho all they say on them is "stainless" and "china". Ill contact Richard J, thank for the link!

It depends. Cold Steel for example use taiwan to manufacture knives, but they're just using the labour.
These knives only say made in taiwan with no steel info but are made from Japanes AUS 8.

however, any no name/unknown name brand 10$ knive with any info about china or taiwan is cr@p.
I know my people. (lol)

8cr steels are all very easy to sharpen. I use a lanskey fine stone without the clamp and still get them razor sharp
 
Razorsharp get a leather belt for your belt grinder and give that a try. I'm betting you will use that instead of a strop just like you use the belt grinder to form your edges. I personaly couldn't believe how well the leather belt worked. I could kick myself for not trying them when I first got a belt sander.
 
^ That. Spending the ~$15 from Econ to get the SurgiSharp belt is worth every penny.

I run two SurgiSharps, actually, both with Hand American compounds. First one is a 1 micron Boron Carbide, strips the burr off very cleanly and leaves a nice polish. I stop there for most knives, actually. If I'm feelin' the extra polish, I grab the second belt that is loaded with .5 micron Chromium Oxide. THAT leaves a very nice polish.
 
Not to rainon the parade here, but there is some research that says any use of an uncooled belt sander will burn the edge, even if only for a very short distance back from the very edge.
 
Where'd you find that, out of curiosity? I'd be really curious, given that a lot of the major custom guys both build and sharpen their blades with uncooled belts.
 
I don't believe it. I've always checked the heat wile useing a belt grinder and it doesn't even get warm. In fact I've gotten a blade warmer by grinding by hand on a extra coarse DMT hone. I'm sure you can over heat with a belt grinder but you'd have to let it sit on the belt to do it.
 
The research was done by Roman Landes, a German knifemaker. He cited a reference where surface temperatures were measured by embedded thermocouples for a sample slid dry, by hand, across a piece of fine abrasive. Peak temperatures were measured well above the austenizing temperature, but only for a few microns deep and for brief periods of time. At the very edge, beyond detectable by fingers or temper colors seen visually, the edge heats and cools very rapidly.

He also points out that this is but one part of the equation. For a knife with a botched heat treatment, it won't even be noticable. For a knife with a superlative heat treatment, it can make a difference.

I sharpen my knives occasionally with a 1x30 belt sander and finish with a Surgisharp leather belt loaded with compound. For the sake of time, I'm just willing to accept that A) I'm getting somewhat lower performance than I otherwise would, and/or B) there are other factors that make up for any decrease that I would otherwise detect.

Other makers I've communicated with have noticed differences between wet and dry sharpening, and switched to either wet belts or wet hand abrasives for the final sharpening. The original place I heard about it was from a maker who attended the Ashokan seminar/show where Roman presented his findings/research.

It's worth noting that Roman's standards are extremely high, and he uses steels, heat treatments, and hardness levels that many makers would just roll their eyes at, like 64-68 HRc on very thin bevels, 0.25 mm or so.
 
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Oh my dear lord, that shop doesnt know wtf its doing! I'd go back and ask for my money back! 8cr13mov steel is an easy steel to sharpen and it can take a hair wittling edge easily! I can't believe u let that guy touch more then one of your knifes haha!





My local Knife shop I go to uses a belt sander to sharpen knives. I wanted to ask what everyones opinion is on using a belt sander for sharpening?I've only had him sharpen my knives once and it came out alright. He said my spyderco tenacious was hard to sharpen which has 8cr13mov steel. It came out being slightly less sharper than the factory sharpening. My benchamde adamas 275 was sharpened a lot better since it has D2 steel.

Would you say the guy isn't very good at sharpening since he couldn't sharpen my tenacious very well, or is that a common problem with 8cr13mov? Im thinking of taking my spyderco stretch carbon fiber with ZDP 189 to him, but im afraid he'll ruin it and not be able to sharpen it well since ZDP 189 is pretty hard steel from what I've herd.

Anyones input on this would be greatly appreciated!

Best Regards,

Zack
 
Me2 thanks for that post. I do respect Roman Landes and he knows more than I ever will about this. With that said I sure don't notice any performance difference between my hand sharpened edge and my belt sharpened edges. Heck I even wonder if the water cooled sharpening does the same thing and is so quick his meter cann't pick it up? I do remember his carbide study and the results got blown way out of context on these forums by a long gone member. Even Roman himself came on here and explained it. I guess what I'm really saying is I'll keep useing the belt grinder until I do notice a difference. I'll admit though you've given me something to worry about with my prefered sharpening method.
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I just reread your post. Was that study done on hand sharpening and not a power sharpener? If so I guess any sharpening burns the edge to a degree. I wonder how few microns it effects? If I only sharpened to a finish of 1 micron is there an effect? What size is the green compound anyway? What about a 5 micron finished edge? What if I dunk the blade in water before I made a pass on the belt? Darn more questions than answers I'm sure.
 
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There is the real question. If the temperatures go that high, which we know they do, why don't I see the difference such a temperature would make? As he said, I think this goes back to there are many variables, and that is just one. I have a knife that I want to try out a detailed test on, to see what I can figure out, but it will take a while. This weekend and next I might have some time to dig into it.
 
Sounds good. Hopefully you'll find some answers, or at least give us something to argue about. :)
 
The research was done by Roman Landes, a German knifemaker. He cited a reference where surface temperatures were measured by embedded thermocouples for a sample slid dry, by hand, across a piece of fine abrasive. Peak temperatures were measured well above the austenizing temperature, but only for a few microns deep and for brief periods of time. At the very edge, beyond detectable by fingers or temper colors seen visually, the edge heats and cools very rapidly.

He also points out that this is but one part of the equation. For a knife with a botched heat treatment, it won't even be noticable. For a knife with a superlative heat treatment, it can make a difference.

I sharpen my knives occasionally with a 1x30 belt sander and finish with a Surgisharp leather belt loaded with compound. For the sake of time, I'm just willing to accept that A) I'm getting somewhat lower performance than I otherwise would, and/or B) there are other factors that make up for any decrease that I would otherwise detect.

Other makers I've communicated with have noticed differences between wet and dry sharpening, and switched to either wet belts or wet hand abrasives for the final sharpening. The original place I heard about it was from a maker who attended the Ashokan seminar/show where Roman presented his findings/research.

It's worth noting that Roman's standards are extremely high, and he uses steels, heat treatments, and hardness levels that many makers would just roll their eyes at, like 64-68 HRc on very thin bevels, 0.25 mm or so.
Isn't this a complete moot point for most knives? From what I understand, all production knives use powered sharpening of one type or another, and I believe those are done on wheels or a belt sander dry. Even going into customs the use of hand sharpening is questionable for the most part. The grind of the blade usually has to be left a bit thick before heat treatment or else you'll risk warping the blade, and I can't imagine removing that much metal manually in a timely manner.

We can all lose sleep over it, or accept that our blades aren't dulling from a couple of cuts into cardboard and continue using them.
 
I wont say for most knives, but I certainly think there are many knives that have other issues that overshadow a little edge overheating. Most customs are reground/polished after heat treatment and could concievably be taken to a very thin flat or even zero ground, then the last bit could be done by hand, adding a final edge and removing any small amount of overheated metal reasonably quickly. Remember we are only talking 0.020 mm or so back from the edge.

To even further complicate things, this goes against John Juranich's recommendations to always use dry stones.

I'm certainly not loosing sleep over it, but its worth knowing that this issue has been studied in detail.

Db, yes this study was on hand powered movement across a 1000 grit abrasive. Even water cooled hand sharpening got the measured temperature up to near boiling.
 
Razorsharp get a leather belt for your belt grinder and give that a try. I'm betting you will use that instead of a strop just like you use the belt grinder to form your edges. I personaly couldn't believe how well the leather belt worked. I could kick myself for not trying them when I first got a belt sander.

I think I will try that one day, thanks :D
 
Actually, as a following thought there, I use the leather belt even after I've used the EdgePro or Wicked Edge. After I finish the sharpening, my last step is a series of passes with the lightest pressure I can manage across both of my leather belts on the Kalamazoo. About the same effect as hand stropping, just far, FAR faster.
 
FYI, there is some info in Hardhearts CATRA testing post about low angle (10 degree per side) sharpening on a 120 grit belt. Edge holding was very good.
 
Did Landes happen to measure different grits to see if they heat up more or less? Just wondering if stropping would produce more or less heat than the 1000 grit. I don't notice my blade heating up at all with my belt on my 1 x 42 but like you said you can't really see or feel the heat at the micron level. Personally I'm becoming more and more convinced that the micron overheating is not a factor. At least it isn't a noticable difference for me.
 
I don't know if he measured it himself, or was quoting older reference material, and I don't know about various grits. I do know this type of thing is a big issue in industrial settings, and a lab I interviewed with several years ago had a standard procedure for microscopy of generator turbine blades to see if the nickel superalloys had experienced grain growth during grinding. The same type of grain growth feared by forgers, on purpose made high temperature alloys, from grinding.

I myself am of the opinion that the overheating is overshadowed by other factors, so it's not noticed by most people. However, I'm sure Roman applies the same level of scrutiny to his knives that he does to the turbine blades he makes for Rolls Royce, so on his knives it is likely a factor. That said, I am having some issues now that could be attributed to overheating while belt sander sharpening. It's on a Cold Steel Machete that I reground to 3.5 degrees per side with a secondary bevel at 15 degrees per side and 0.015" thick at the top. Dropping from 20 to 15 degrees I started seeing edge damage while chopping wood, which I wasn't seeing before. Well, seeing isn't the right word. I can't see it without magnification, but I can feel it. Before I go back up to 20 degrees per side (dps) I might check and see what waterstone sharpening to remove all but the largest dings does for durability. If it suddenly holds up, overheating may well be the culprit, though like you I saw no color changes, and felt no heat when holding the blade. At this geometry, it's easy to resharpen by hand, which was the whole point in the first place. The biggest down side to belt sander sharpening is they eat up a blade fast, and it takes a lot of practice and skill to keep that to a minimum and not wear out a knife.
 
15 degrees is too low an angle for a chopper. I've heard that merely adding a 20 degree microbevel does wonders as far as reducing chipping/rolling is concerned. Finer grits will generate less heat, which to me would suggest that any heating issues will be removed simply from refining the edge.
 
Finer grits will generate less heat, which to me would suggest that any heating issues will be removed simply from refining the edge.
That is the direction I am thinking. However, I'll admit I'm very biased as the belt grinder is my prefered sharpening method. Me2 a belt grinder can remove alot of steel. I've found that I'm more careful grinding with the belt than I was by hand. My results I end up removing less steel than I did when I hand sharpened on bench hones.
I rarely even use a lower grit than a 600 belt. By hand I would start much coarser than that. almost all my touchup sharpening is done on a ceramic rod and done dry so I really don't have a reference to a water cooled edge. Maybe I'll pull out my water hone and start useing that for touchups for awile and see if I notice a difference.
 
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