Recently I have been buying out quite a bit of another dealers inventory. A part of what I have gotten is a United Knife that looks very much like the Cricket. I am very impressed with the leverage you get with a blade like that and how it can dig in, almost like the claw on a Eagle. But the United Cutlery version is more Egg shaped and you do not feel like you have a real good grip on it. Next time I place an order, I want to get a Cricket to check it out. But in the meantime, I was wondering, just where the design came from, as far as the shape and the blade. Also, can you get a good hold on it? Or does it have a tendency to slip a little. I consider a knife a tool, and sometimes you have to do precision cutting with a knife. Or is this just a small easy to carry knife designed to really dig in when you have some deep cutting to do? Thanks JohnR7
Spyderco Cricket
- Thread starter JohnR7
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Sal Glesser
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John - The United Cutlery "version" is a patent infringement that they swore they elimninated. Better not let Peter catch you selling it.
sal
sal
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I think the design is supposed to look like the ying yang symbol.
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-Dennis
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-Dennis
Thanks for the tip about the United product, I did not know for sure that they were discontinued. If I manage to run across anymore, I may just set them aside as an investment, as rare items, do tend to climb in value and be worth more than commons.
What was it you said I needed to be concerned about from Peter?
[This message has been edited by JohnR7 (edited 11 November 1999).]
What was it you said I needed to be concerned about from Peter?
[This message has been edited by JohnR7 (edited 11 November 1999).]
Sal Glesser
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John - I don't expect that it will go up in value. It was a cheap "Knock off" that was less than $1.00 when new.
The original was designed and developed by Spyderco. Spyderco patented and marketed the design. Atually, It was one of my designs. Needless to say, we were very disappointed to see the crooks make the money on it.
Companies that make junk like that don't care about the design, the designer, the quality or anything else. Most of the samples that we saw had unsafe lock ups or didn't edgage at all.
The only part about that knife that anyone cared about (except maybe you) was the profit that could be derived from selling it.
The makers and importers that were selling the design simply stole it from Spyderco. There is little honor in those groups. The product is made to decieve and take money from trusting Americans.
By supporting such copies, you hurt Spyderco and strengthen the knock off manufacturers and distributors.
Then the money is sent back to China to make more copies.
They were just some of the culprits (wh*res) ripping off the public and Spyderco on that one. They also swore that they were all destroyed. So much for honor. So what can you expect in quality from companies that lie and steal? We've both been raped.
Sorry for the rant...pet peeve.
Peter is our legal eagle that looks for patent infringers to sue.
sal
[This message has been edited by Sal Glesser (edited 11 November 1999).]
The original was designed and developed by Spyderco. Spyderco patented and marketed the design. Atually, It was one of my designs. Needless to say, we were very disappointed to see the crooks make the money on it.
Companies that make junk like that don't care about the design, the designer, the quality or anything else. Most of the samples that we saw had unsafe lock ups or didn't edgage at all.
The only part about that knife that anyone cared about (except maybe you) was the profit that could be derived from selling it.
The makers and importers that were selling the design simply stole it from Spyderco. There is little honor in those groups. The product is made to decieve and take money from trusting Americans.
By supporting such copies, you hurt Spyderco and strengthen the knock off manufacturers and distributors.
Then the money is sent back to China to make more copies.
They were just some of the culprits (wh*res) ripping off the public and Spyderco on that one. They also swore that they were all destroyed. So much for honor. So what can you expect in quality from companies that lie and steal? We've both been raped.
Sorry for the rant...pet peeve.
Peter is our legal eagle that looks for patent infringers to sue.
sal
[This message has been edited by Sal Glesser (edited 11 November 1999).]
Sal,
I totally understand you wanting to protect your bussiness. I have/had (I think I lost it :-( ) a Cricket, and really love it. It's convieniently small and lightweight. I loved it for everyday small tasks. It feels much better than my Ladybug.
Thanks for producing such great knives, and keep up the good work.
~Mitch
I totally understand you wanting to protect your bussiness. I have/had (I think I lost it :-( ) a Cricket, and really love it. It's convieniently small and lightweight. I loved it for everyday small tasks. It feels much better than my Ladybug.
Thanks for producing such great knives, and keep up the good work.
~Mitch
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If I understand the opening post, the POS Cricket-clones seem to have been buried in a bulk purchase of another dealer's inventory. Is it kosher, under such circumstances, to sell them as a close-out?
I've been trying to avoid selling anything from the World's Largest Political Prison on my web page. Sometimes I get foiled when some separate part, like a jewel box, says "Made in China, on the bottom, and I don't know where the cases for those watches I sell come from before they're assembled with the Swiss movements, but I'm afraid I may owe a donation to the Tibet Fund on account some of them.
I picked up a Double 8 (poo! poo! poo!) catalog at the Blade Show this summer. It seems that Endura and Delica clones that sell for $5 everywhere you look cost the dealers a dollar and change each, when bought in bulk. That kind of profit margin, especially in places where customers pay cash, is known as temptation. [blasphemy and biological improbability deleted]
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
I've been trying to avoid selling anything from the World's Largest Political Prison on my web page. Sometimes I get foiled when some separate part, like a jewel box, says "Made in China, on the bottom, and I don't know where the cases for those watches I sell come from before they're assembled with the Swiss movements, but I'm afraid I may owe a donation to the Tibet Fund on account some of them.
I picked up a Double 8 (poo! poo! poo!) catalog at the Blade Show this summer. It seems that Endura and Delica clones that sell for $5 everywhere you look cost the dealers a dollar and change each, when bought in bulk. That kind of profit margin, especially in places where customers pay cash, is known as temptation. [blasphemy and biological improbability deleted]
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
Sal, first of all, I am just a little guy. On a good day, I may only sell $600 worth of knives. But I am considering to pick up and move more of the Spyderco knives. So if you want to throw some bones or specials my way, via, Blue Ridge, I will pick them up and move em out, and encourage other dealers to do the same. Now, back to the subject at hand.
>> The original was designed and developed by Spyderco. Spyderco patented and marketed the design. Actually, It was one of my designs. Needless to say, we were very disappointed to see the crooks make the money on it.
Well, maybe you can help me here. In the old school, people use to network and everyone would work toward perfecting a design. Then Bill Gates come along and decided he could steel from whoever he wanted to steel from, but no one was allowed to steel from him.
Of course its not right, for someone to take your work, and profit off of your creative gift from God. That is why we have copy protection laws, and that is why you have the right to file with Customs, and when they take your knife to China, and have them mass produce your design, you can have Customs confiscate their $10,000 order and destroy it.
As you know when Bill Clinton was over in China, he was supposed to address the issue of copy protection laws, which they do not seem to have any regard for over in China. But they were to busy trying to smuggle Beanies into the country, and selling things to China that they were not actually authorized to sell. So they never really got around to defending your rights, but they did mention that criminals and dissidents may have rights.
Anyways, I really liked the design on that blade and that knife. It scares me a bit at its potential for harm in the wrong hands, BUT it looks to me like a good blade to dig in and do some deep cutting, rather than to try and float its way back out to the surface. If that is your design, then its my honor to have the privledge to be talking with you. Its to your credit that you do not disregard us little guys
But, after taking up far to much of your time, my question is this. While I admire your concern for safty, and your not wanting people to put garbage in the hands of others. Ie a knife that the lock may fail and it may fold up on a persons fingers and cut them. IF the knife actually had any ability to cut in the first place.
Do you actually lose money on the "cheap ripoff's" or do they perhaps put a hunger into people for the real thing. Causing your sales to increase? Is it not free advertising for you, that they are out there saying Spyderco look alikes. That may send some people your way, looking for the origional and it may put some bucks in your pocket. So thats question number one.
My experance is, that people are getting tired of all the China junk falling apart and breaking on them after a year. They are starting to come back to the better knives. I am starting to stock more of them, and people who for years turned their nose up in the air and walked right past my table, are starting to come around and talk to me again. The kids who have been buying that junk, are getting older and making more money and they are starting to want to buy better, more expensive knives.
Anyways, its a delicate balance, and Ty Warner taught us all from his mistake, that you have to throw enough out there, to keep people interested, but if you flood your market, people well all yawn, and get bored and walk away. Thanks so very much, JohnR7
>> The original was designed and developed by Spyderco. Spyderco patented and marketed the design. Actually, It was one of my designs. Needless to say, we were very disappointed to see the crooks make the money on it.
Well, maybe you can help me here. In the old school, people use to network and everyone would work toward perfecting a design. Then Bill Gates come along and decided he could steel from whoever he wanted to steel from, but no one was allowed to steel from him.
Of course its not right, for someone to take your work, and profit off of your creative gift from God. That is why we have copy protection laws, and that is why you have the right to file with Customs, and when they take your knife to China, and have them mass produce your design, you can have Customs confiscate their $10,000 order and destroy it.
As you know when Bill Clinton was over in China, he was supposed to address the issue of copy protection laws, which they do not seem to have any regard for over in China. But they were to busy trying to smuggle Beanies into the country, and selling things to China that they were not actually authorized to sell. So they never really got around to defending your rights, but they did mention that criminals and dissidents may have rights.
Anyways, I really liked the design on that blade and that knife. It scares me a bit at its potential for harm in the wrong hands, BUT it looks to me like a good blade to dig in and do some deep cutting, rather than to try and float its way back out to the surface. If that is your design, then its my honor to have the privledge to be talking with you. Its to your credit that you do not disregard us little guys
But, after taking up far to much of your time, my question is this. While I admire your concern for safty, and your not wanting people to put garbage in the hands of others. Ie a knife that the lock may fail and it may fold up on a persons fingers and cut them. IF the knife actually had any ability to cut in the first place.
Do you actually lose money on the "cheap ripoff's" or do they perhaps put a hunger into people for the real thing. Causing your sales to increase? Is it not free advertising for you, that they are out there saying Spyderco look alikes. That may send some people your way, looking for the origional and it may put some bucks in your pocket. So thats question number one.
My experance is, that people are getting tired of all the China junk falling apart and breaking on them after a year. They are starting to come back to the better knives. I am starting to stock more of them, and people who for years turned their nose up in the air and walked right past my table, are starting to come around and talk to me again. The kids who have been buying that junk, are getting older and making more money and they are starting to want to buy better, more expensive knives.
Anyways, its a delicate balance, and Ty Warner taught us all from his mistake, that you have to throw enough out there, to keep people interested, but if you flood your market, people well all yawn, and get bored and walk away. Thanks so very much, JohnR7
>> If I understand the opening post, the POS Cricket-clones seem to have been buried in a bulk purchase of another dealer's inventory. Is it kosher, under such circumstances, to sell them as a close-out?
Its rather a mute point. Sense I only got three of them, and their value has been established here at $1 each, so we are only talking about $3. But they looked so much like the Cricket, that I thought to ask about who came up with that design. Its a really neat design, and I plan to buy myself a Cricket the first chance I get
If you want to know its value, I put five heavy peices of paper on the table and the cheap rip off went though about 4 of them. The Cricket went through all five and cut a fair amount into the wood under it.
I did feel a risk, that the rip off knife could break and harm me. I did not feel any risk of failure on the part of the Spyderco, but of course you have to be careful with any cutting tool. If you get cut with a cheap rip off, its going to be a jagged cut, maybe even a tear, and that is going to be difficult to heal and be prone to infections. A good knife will make a clean cut, seal right away and heal fast.
Thanks, JohnR7
Its rather a mute point. Sense I only got three of them, and their value has been established here at $1 each, so we are only talking about $3. But they looked so much like the Cricket, that I thought to ask about who came up with that design. Its a really neat design, and I plan to buy myself a Cricket the first chance I get
If you want to know its value, I put five heavy peices of paper on the table and the cheap rip off went though about 4 of them. The Cricket went through all five and cut a fair amount into the wood under it.
I did feel a risk, that the rip off knife could break and harm me. I did not feel any risk of failure on the part of the Spyderco, but of course you have to be careful with any cutting tool. If you get cut with a cheap rip off, its going to be a jagged cut, maybe even a tear, and that is going to be difficult to heal and be prone to infections. A good knife will make a clean cut, seal right away and heal fast.
Thanks, JohnR7
Sal Glesser
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John - We do the patent number and are working with customs. Unfortunately our patent laws have no teeth and customs is very slow (several years).
Without getting ito theorecticals, I can say that since the Endura and Delica knock offs have flooded the market, Spyderco sales for those models has dropped considerably (more than 20%). Crickets the same when the Dragon Egg came out. While the knock off sales increase in double digits.
How bad does it have to get before we drop a model? Then all that the ELU have left is the "Knock off".
You would be amazed at how much is made in
China! Europe doesn't require contry of origin on products. I have seen products made in China and sold as being made in Germany, etc. Some are even stamped with the local country after the product arrives from China. There is simply too much profit in Chinese made proudcts that are pretending to be the real thing. That's why it continues and grows.
One can buy an Chinese Endura knock off for $1.40 and sell it for $25 because it is compared to a $60 Spyderco. That kind of margin often turns an honest person into a tool for the Chinese distribution.
Just some thoughts to share. Don't think we can change it...it's just too big. You think our own politicians are clean?
sal
Without getting ito theorecticals, I can say that since the Endura and Delica knock offs have flooded the market, Spyderco sales for those models has dropped considerably (more than 20%). Crickets the same when the Dragon Egg came out. While the knock off sales increase in double digits.
How bad does it have to get before we drop a model? Then all that the ELU have left is the "Knock off".
You would be amazed at how much is made in
China! Europe doesn't require contry of origin on products. I have seen products made in China and sold as being made in Germany, etc. Some are even stamped with the local country after the product arrives from China. There is simply too much profit in Chinese made proudcts that are pretending to be the real thing. That's why it continues and grows.
One can buy an Chinese Endura knock off for $1.40 and sell it for $25 because it is compared to a $60 Spyderco. That kind of margin often turns an honest person into a tool for the Chinese distribution.
Just some thoughts to share. Don't think we can change it...it's just too big. You think our own politicians are clean?
sal
>> I have seen products made in China and sold as being made in Germany, etc.
As far as I know, that started with Kabar knives. They would engrave real deep on the front of the blade "Kabar Cleveland USA" and on the back engrave light: china or Hong Kong. Some of the dealers would then grind off the back, and sell the knife for twice the money. Its evolved to the point now, where you have Columbia River putting Tiawan on in ink so light, that cleaning your finger prints off the knife just about takes the "Taiwan" name off. As for me, I do not plan to go back to Hong Kong this year. We are planing to go to the Philippines to check into the Bolos and the Balisongs there. Take care, thanks, JohnR7
As far as I know, that started with Kabar knives. They would engrave real deep on the front of the blade "Kabar Cleveland USA" and on the back engrave light: china or Hong Kong. Some of the dealers would then grind off the back, and sell the knife for twice the money. Its evolved to the point now, where you have Columbia River putting Tiawan on in ink so light, that cleaning your finger prints off the knife just about takes the "Taiwan" name off. As for me, I do not plan to go back to Hong Kong this year. We are planing to go to the Philippines to check into the Bolos and the Balisongs there. Take care, thanks, JohnR7
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How long until you drop the model, leaving the end user with nothing but the knock-offs? I wonder if that's what happened to the Benchmade Spike? No longer made by Benchmade, but plenty of knock-offs out there, including some with the chutzpah to use the same name and model number. $#|%!!!!
I find more and more products difficult or impossible to buy, unless I am willing to help evil prosper, in the form of the world's largest political prison. And when I complain to store management (i.e. "Do you have a printer cable that doesn't come from a communist country?"), they act like I'm some sort of freak because I don't like buying slave labor. Or maybe I am a freak, if 99% of the public go along with it.
At least in the knife business we still have choices. For now.
And is there any other possible source for the jewel boxes for the Mini Police Necklace?
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
I find more and more products difficult or impossible to buy, unless I am willing to help evil prosper, in the form of the world's largest political prison. And when I complain to store management (i.e. "Do you have a printer cable that doesn't come from a communist country?"), they act like I'm some sort of freak because I don't like buying slave labor. Or maybe I am a freak, if 99% of the public go along with it.
At least in the knife business we still have choices. For now.
And is there any other possible source for the jewel boxes for the Mini Police Necklace?
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
- Joined
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I was at a small gun show a couple of months ago, and I bought myself a blue aluminum Centofanto C25S at an attractive price . . . and then I saw what the guy was selling a few feet away. PRC clones of damn near everything in the Spyderco Lightweight line. The Walker C22 lightweight, for instance. I hadn't seen that one cloned before.
I noticed at the Blade Show that Double 8 had the nerve to set up a booth in the same room as most of their victims. Their catalog has clones of Spyderco, Benchmade, Buck, Cold Steel, SOG, Victorinox, Crawford, Hibben, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I suppose if there was anything that legimate manufacturers could do about it, they'd be doing it. And reining in Double 8 wouldn't keep the factory from shipping through somebody else.
Then there are the companies that are on both sides of the line. Boker, for example, will be happy to alert Customs to an importer of cheap Toplock-clone switchblades, but their catalog includes the Magnum line, which is their label for clones of other manufacturers by the usual suspects.
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
I noticed at the Blade Show that Double 8 had the nerve to set up a booth in the same room as most of their victims. Their catalog has clones of Spyderco, Benchmade, Buck, Cold Steel, SOG, Victorinox, Crawford, Hibben, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I suppose if there was anything that legimate manufacturers could do about it, they'd be doing it. And reining in Double 8 wouldn't keep the factory from shipping through somebody else.
Then there are the companies that are on both sides of the line. Boker, for example, will be happy to alert Customs to an importer of cheap Toplock-clone switchblades, but their catalog includes the Magnum line, which is their label for clones of other manufacturers by the usual suspects.
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
I've now seen rip-off clones of Al Mar, Buck, Gerber, and a clone of the CRKT Apache.
Actually, just because a knife is made in Taiwan doesn't mean it's a poor knife. Some companies like CRKT and Outdoor Edge have some or most of their product made their, and if held to a high standard, Taiwan-made knives are very good. Of course, low-end, POS knives by disreputable companies, even if made in Japan or Germany, can be crap.
Unfortunately, not everyone who buys a POS made in China Endura or Delica ripoff knife will graduate to the real deal, because not everyone can see the difference. Maybe if their ripoff breaks or falls apart, they'll become discouraged and think all one-hander knives are junk.
Jim
Actually, just because a knife is made in Taiwan doesn't mean it's a poor knife. Some companies like CRKT and Outdoor Edge have some or most of their product made their, and if held to a high standard, Taiwan-made knives are very good. Of course, low-end, POS knives by disreputable companies, even if made in Japan or Germany, can be crap.
Unfortunately, not everyone who buys a POS made in China Endura or Delica ripoff knife will graduate to the real deal, because not everyone can see the difference. Maybe if their ripoff breaks or falls apart, they'll become discouraged and think all one-hander knives are junk.
Jim
Sal Glesser
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Jim - Astute observation! The comment that I hear the most is; "I'll buy the cheap one and if I like it, then I'll get the good one".
Illogical as it is, it is very common. Naturally, they are rarely pleased with the cheap one.
sal
Illogical as it is, it is very common. Naturally, they are rarely pleased with the cheap one.
sal
>> just because a knife is made in Taiwan doesn't mean it's a poor knife.
It does to me. I ordered in a supply of pen knives once. I can't remember how many, half a dozen or a dozen or so. I opened up one of the boxes and all that fell out of it was parts. Some of them had not even been run through the machine yet. I looked and it said "Taiwan" on the box. After that, I was done with Taiwan, if they had so little regard over there, that they would do that to me. Then when I found out that Columbia river was Tiawan, I wanted nothing to do with them. Most of their money goes towards advertising anyways.
It does to me. I ordered in a supply of pen knives once. I can't remember how many, half a dozen or a dozen or so. I opened up one of the boxes and all that fell out of it was parts. Some of them had not even been run through the machine yet. I looked and it said "Taiwan" on the box. After that, I was done with Taiwan, if they had so little regard over there, that they would do that to me. Then when I found out that Columbia river was Tiawan, I wanted nothing to do with them. Most of their money goes towards advertising anyways.
>> i recently ended up in the possession of a Bud K Worldwide catalog(dont ask...) and i noticed they had those 'dragon eggs' in there.
I did a little bit of checking into this today. It looks like when United took its name off of the product, someone else must have picked it right back up. I doubt if the manufacture shut down their production. At one time, they were selling for $12, and the top price is down to $6 and it would not surprise me at all, if they are selling for $3 before long. They look to be cheaper than ever, without the united name on them.
Sorry Sal, I think we have all been there though, I work my butt off and invest lots of money doing research, trying to find out what works, and as soon as I do, everyone jumps on the band wagon, and I seem to be left with nothing. So, I throw lots of decoys out there, I put a knife that does not sell, right next to a knife that does. No one knows what my back up inventory is for any given knife. I may have lots for one, and none for another, because I am the only one that knows the good sellers. Then also, I keep changing what I sell, sense my customers are always wanting something different, and that keeps me out ahead of the others.
The general rule of thumb,is you can not keep out a thief, but you can make it hard enough for him to steal from you, so that he will move onto the next guy who is more easy to take from. The general rule of thumb is that a thief, someone who plunders the work of others, is a lazy person. If its the least amount of work, to duplicate your efforts, they will not do it. So, the bottom line is Sal, make em harder to copy, and they will leave you alone, they will move onto the next guy, who is more easy to copy. Thanks, John
I did a little bit of checking into this today. It looks like when United took its name off of the product, someone else must have picked it right back up. I doubt if the manufacture shut down their production. At one time, they were selling for $12, and the top price is down to $6 and it would not surprise me at all, if they are selling for $3 before long. They look to be cheaper than ever, without the united name on them.
Sorry Sal, I think we have all been there though, I work my butt off and invest lots of money doing research, trying to find out what works, and as soon as I do, everyone jumps on the band wagon, and I seem to be left with nothing. So, I throw lots of decoys out there, I put a knife that does not sell, right next to a knife that does. No one knows what my back up inventory is for any given knife. I may have lots for one, and none for another, because I am the only one that knows the good sellers. Then also, I keep changing what I sell, sense my customers are always wanting something different, and that keeps me out ahead of the others.
The general rule of thumb,is you can not keep out a thief, but you can make it hard enough for him to steal from you, so that he will move onto the next guy who is more easy to take from. The general rule of thumb is that a thief, someone who plunders the work of others, is a lazy person. If its the least amount of work, to duplicate your efforts, they will not do it. So, the bottom line is Sal, make em harder to copy, and they will leave you alone, they will move onto the next guy, who is more easy to copy. Thanks, John
Sal Glesser
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John - How does one make them harder to copy? The knock off people don't copy the technology, only the "look".
They're already copying the next guy, and the guy after that and the guy after that as well.
The thieves have targeted us as a design source. They watch us closely.
It's also a shame that it's so close to home. Local forum advertising is in bed with them. Gigand is in bed with them, etc. etc. Ticks me off when I see their ads on the Spyderco forum. Like rubbing in in. If I ever shut it down and go away, you'll know why. Thanx for the ear though.
sal
They're already copying the next guy, and the guy after that and the guy after that as well.
The thieves have targeted us as a design source. They watch us closely.
It's also a shame that it's so close to home. Local forum advertising is in bed with them. Gigand is in bed with them, etc. etc. Ticks me off when I see their ads on the Spyderco forum. Like rubbing in in. If I ever shut it down and go away, you'll know why. Thanx for the ear though.
sal