Tang Photo

it's long enough for the job it was designed for. after all it's not a chopper, it was designed for slicing off slices of biltong, a south african spiced and dried meat & i gather the 'bilton' is quite popular in SA for that & also how it got it's name. it's more properly the biltong khukuri.
Copy-of-Our-Biltong4.jpg
 
snowwolf said:
That is so cool. Thanks for sharing!!!!!!!!

I'm little surprised how short the tang is on a Bilton though.
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Think about how short the tangs are on longleafs and some of the Filipino stuff-especially barongs.
I had a cheapie monosteel barong from the '60's that I cut a full tatami omote roll, with a 1" bamboo core cleanly with.
Long story short, I got it home, etched it and the hardening line wandered on and off the edge. Clamped heat sinks on the choil and rehardened the edge-which loosened the pitch a bit.
Drilled an 1/8" hole for a pin, so it wouldn't become a barongapult at some point. Didn't hit tang.
The tang was a 1" nub-and it successfully cut the equivalent of a big mans thigh.
I shortened it enough to get a long enough tang to pin.
 
here is a photo of an indian mughal dagger with an armour piercing point.

the hilt is actually clear transparent polished rock crystal. the habaki style bolster and the Very short numb of a tang visible thru the crystal and a dab of resin cement is all that has held it together for a few hundred years. this princely knife did not, of course, see much if any use in battle, but it has survived far longer than many full tang ones. ;)

moghul.jpg
 
Though not as experienced with HI blades as many on this forum, I know enough about knives and swords to feel confident that any HI field ready blade will outlive me, irrespective of tang type and handle material.
 
I learn so much from you guys over the years and I keep on learning....Thanks for posting your knowledge about these great knives. :thumbup:
 
kronckew said:
it's long enough for the job it was designed for. after all it's not a chopper, it was designed for slicing off slices of biltong, a south african spiced and dried meat & i gather the 'bilton' is quite popular in SA for that & also how it got it's name. it's more properly the biltong khukuri.
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We have a biltong recipe in the HI cookbook. It's good stuff. I have some drying in my living room right now.
 
i found an online supplier in london that makes it from beef to order, cuts it up for you & vacuum seals it in 500 gram (just over a lb.) plastic bags, you can order it dry or wet and in a couple of flavours with differing spices. i bought some as a treat. disappeared so fast i decided i couldn't afford it regularly.
 
I make it myself per the referenced recipe at much less cost than a commercial preparation.

For the first few hours I hang it over the sink, as it drips. Then it goes to another location for final drying (to taste).

Since the sink is in front of the window, a subsidiary benefit is dripping slabs of red meat tends to repel solicitors and political canvassers.
 
snowwolf said:
Rat tails on HI Kuks are very strong, has a better shock absorption and are much easier to redo if needed.
Plus... You only have to file the butt cap a little if the material shrinks.

I've read somewhere that the handles on our Kuks with rat tails may not last a lifetime. They might need to be redone only if you use your kuk on a daily basis as a working tool.
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If i might suggest, the term rat or rat tail is an entirely inaccurate description of the massive tapered tang on the khukuris from this company, as is the common "stick tang"......hidden tang describes it as does massive tapered tang, but "rat tail" is something only cheaper shoddy khukuris have, and someone reading these posts and not parsing jumbled photos would get an entirely incorrect idea as to how a Himalayan Imports khukuri is built. The photo spread saying not HI but should give a general idea while showing a shoddy breakage prone welded-on true rat tail only muddies the water further.....

Free discussion is great but care must be taken to not give wrong impressions....impressions of quality are what keeps HI afloat and sets them apart from all the junk purveyors....

Handle durability will depend entirely on how well initially fit along with grain of whatever material and any imperfections, as well as what is struck and also environment.....many variables for blanket statements.....natural materials expand and contract far more than inert man made materials....they always have....this implies no weakness to handle or material....but might imply poor selection by end user....and most buyers do not want modern materials or even construction on traditional khukuris and sales of full tang riveted scale knives compared to traditional will bear this out. The world is full of souless flat pieces of steel with bolted handles. Why reinvent the wheel and talk as if traditional is somehow inferior when souless prybars are plentiful?

As for all the armchair theorizing over tang strength as if the tapered tang might be a.problem at some point, it generally is going to be a 1/2 hard bar of 5160 spring steel 3/8ths" x 3/4" and i would like a show of hands of anyone on this site who has managed to break one?.....the odd flawed dud always happens but really.......anyone?.....

As for cracks.....epoxy and maybe even (doubtful if needed) pins(brass or steel nails) and a little time spent researching things such as finding WalMart carries up to 2000 grit sandpaper in the automotive section and that tripoli and rouge are cutting and mirror polish compounds can make any home handyman look good, likewise small swiss files with safe sides.....all much easier than angst over handles...not as if a fitted and glued and capped and peened handle will simply fall off..

If worried about natural material whether slab side scales or drilled/filed/fit/glued/capped/peened, the simplest and best help is to totally seal the surface and gaps against wetting/drying cycles...paint/clearcoat/epoxy/whatever

Just sayin', as they say....
 
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I'd say a rat-tail tang is a perfectly valid term in common use for a less-than-full tang which is wider at the "top" near the blade & tapers in either a slight curve or straight form to its narrow end. Like the tail on a rat, from whence the term derives.

Has nothing to do with quality, style of blade, or country of origin.

I thought the photos supplied were explanatory & illustrative, and I appreciated those who posted them.

I didn't mean to start a long expository thread, or to suggest that rat-tails were junk.

I simply wanted to know the general relative dimensions used on HI rat-tail tanged blades.

That said, and I am NOT saying HI rat-rails will self-destruct, rat-tails do carry inherent stress risers in the two 90-degree angles or corners where the blade is reduced to the top of the tang.
This is well known.
Quality-made knives by other makers (outside the khukuri world) have been known to snap the tang off at that juncture.

Again- I do not mean to say or imply that HI rat-tails are inferior.
I merely say I think the term is valid, I don't believe a rat-tail is AS strong as a full tang that doesn't have those stress risers, but I have no problem in accepting statements that nobody here has known one on an HI to break.

They appear to be up to the job requirements.
I didn't mean to start any long defenses or arguments, just wanted to see the relative dimensions.
I have standard knives with the rat-tail tangs & I have a good one with a stick tang (same thin round "rod-style" dimensions from the rear of the blade to the end of the tang.)

The tang type is A factor in overall strength, particularly on a chopper, but it isn't the ONLY factor.

Heat treatment, steel type & hardness, and bolster/handle construction also makes a difference.

As far as natural materials go, I've been discussing my own experiences with shrinkage on all three of my horn handles & asking for suggestions in dealing with it from others who have more experience in dealing with that than I have.

And, funny- I was searching WalMart aisles yesterday for sandpaper, brought some home to try out. :)

None of my questions or discussions have been to criticize HI products.
I don't buy these to hang on a wall.
Some of what I have are looking to be gifts and/or working tools.
As such, they have to have usable handles. I can't have one tearing skin in an emergency 150 miles out on the desert or at 9000 feet up in the local hills. Also can't have a cracked horn handle give out on me in the same places.

I'm trying to maximize their performance in & under those circumstances.
So far, of the five "serious" khukuris I have that are candidates for use or gifts, the full-tang chiruwa with the M-43 wood and the dual pommel attachment SEEMS to be the most rugged configuration for what I'm looking at.

I can adjust tang & rivet height as needed without bunging up wood too much, I'm just not as much of a hands-on craftsman as some of you guys are & I'm reluctant to be filing steel on horn handles. Or the brass pommel.

Looks like I'll have to on the one horn.
Clean it up the best I can, but it'll never come out as nice as it was when HI shipped it years ago. I don't have buffing equipment or a workbench with a vise.

Also bought some superglue, discovered the oldest khukuri has a new crack I didn't see before soaking it in the Balistol & then the oil.

My experiences tell me horn looks great, but is not a good match for where I live.
No criticism of HI.
Nepal has different humidity levels than my desert-ish environment & that's just a quirk of nature, not a fault of HI. :)

Future buys will simply have to be wood.
I'm working my way through the models & materials, and between what I have & what everybody's been kind enough to help with in answering, I'm finding what works best for me & my situation.

Don't mean to be stepping on anybody else's toes or preferences. :)
Denis
 
Sir, my tapered tang gave me no problem under harsh conditions in a couple of combat theaters of operation....and your prospective realistic needs are what?

I will not address any of the rest of the theorizing, except the heat-treat/hardness/strength etc meander....it is an automotive spring steel...the tang starts at closer to 1" tall than 3/4" at ricasso on a standard khukuri, and generally MINIMUM of 3/8ths" thick...whether 1/4 or 1/2 or full-hard, i have doubts many are broken except by repeated boulder chopping or by beating/hammering/batoning while handle against hard surface, neither being very smart moves.

Your use of full-tang vs rat tail (or kangaroo tail or gerbil or aardvark tail) as if some technical term is ENTIRELY inaccurate and is only a recent internet convention by those not knowing the nomenclature. Until of late and as a selling point by mass production manufacturers, there was full length tang and then partial length....the DEPTH of the tang generally had little to do with things and rather than quality, showed up mainly in cheaper blades stamped or cut and vastly simplified handle installation...and in a brilliant show of consumer gullibility in the USA, swallowed hook, line and sinker as for it being automatically superior.

As for cracking handles, slab or drilled, the main advantage of horn over wood is that of rot resistance (however, many small beetles love horn and not wood)...the horn is a bit more stable but still a natural growth with grain which can split. Best for either would be soaking in epoxy resin to prevent temperature and humidity and altitude expansion and contraction.
 
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davidf99 said:
WWII model by Sher. If this had a handle it would be about 19" long.

View attachment 541462 View attachment 541463

Note the thickness of the tang in the second photo. In most HI models (including this one) the tang goes all the way through the handle and is peened over at the end with a metal keeper.
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Thank you sir for best info in entire thread...everyone please note radii at tang/ricasso and keep in mind minimum thickness of 3/8ths" thick......i wonder if in fact the peening is a two step riveting, with the tang end provided with a little extension left intact while shoulders peened over buttplate then extension peened over small decorative cap formed over larger peened shoulders..
 
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mtngunr said:
Thank you sir for best info in entire thread....i wonder if in fact the peening is a two step riveting, with the tang end provided with a little extension left intact while shoulders peened over buttplate then extension peened over small decorative cap formed over larger peened shoulders..
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No on the 2 step riveting. Buttcap and keeper are tightly fitted, glued with laha and then the tang is heavily peened.
 
The term rat-tail seems to have been around quite a while and I always thought it totally legitimate. Now, a term which I believe was dreamed up by a forumite, but is much more accurate with respect to khukuri is "kangaroo tail" tang. That's what they look like.

As for some of the above, the tang is supposed to be dead soft and unhardened. The tang failures I know of were related to lemons where a kami hardened part of the tang on accident. That has resulted in a few catastrophic failures and I've never seen it with a chiruwa tang.

Chiruwa, or full-profile tang is believed by most as stronger. The amount of steel is tripled. I believe the only question is whether that extra steel is actually needed. Khuk buyers tend to start out wanting chiruwa and after a while migrate to hidden tang for the most part. I still like a properly done chiruwa tang, usually that involves a distal taper from bolster to pommel. That helps greatly with balance. But, I've also come to love the rat tail/hidden tang. Usually that involves balance and the more ergonomic handle that tang style allows.

Pre-WWI khuks seem to be partial tang almost without exception. They worked well. WWI brought full length rat tail and chiruwa. I can't say why. I'm sure full length, as in Mk. I and various regimental/battalion armorer khukuri, was related to concerns about ruggedness, as it was accompanied by metal butt-plates. Chiruwa followed closely, maybe 1916, with the introduction of the Mk. II. Chiruwa may have been to add more strength or for cost cutting, but according to one very knowledgeable authority, the chiruwa is harder for the kamis to make. It seems fitting of two slabs is more laborious than drilling/burning and hole and contouring the handle. This same person also stated, and he's held more vintage khuks than most of us will ever see, he seen more failed chiruwa handle than stick tang. The steel didn't fail, but the wood splits or the attachments give over time. Though we're speaking of 60+ year old khukuri, many of which were stored for decades in sheds.

One thing I believe is an advantage of the chiruwa style is that if the handle, as in wood or horn, failed in the wilds, it would be an easy repair. Even just wrapping in para cord or duct tape would provide a usable handle. A rat tail would be a PITA and take a lot of time. Strength wise, I don't think either are an issue if done properly. Use is also a factor. Thousands of men fought wars with the welded screw tang Kabar knife, yet we know it's quite weak when subjected to serious use, such as batonning. Everyone has different needs and opinions on what's best.

On the horn shrinkage, a regular bath in mineral oil should keep it healthy forever. I've had worse experience with certain types of wood than I have with horn.
 
jdk1 said:
One thing I believe is an advantage of the chiruwa style is that if the handle, as in wood or horn, failed in the wilds, it would be an easy repair. Even just wrapping in para cord or duct tape would provide a usable handle. A rat tail would be a PITA and take a lot of time.
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Actually, to emergency repair the rat tail all that would be needed is a stick of wood of suitable length, stick the tang end in your campfire and burn it on, then bend the tang over.
 
Karda said:
No on the 2 step riveting. Buttcap and keeper are tightly fitted, glued with laha and then the tang is heavily peened.
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I buy things such as Randall knives and not much difference in technology at all....and their handles do not come off either.

Likewise the struggle with natural handle materials. Their classic handle is the stacked sole-leather washer handle, done in Orlando. Likewise somebody in Denver may complain of handle now loose.

Same fix.....send it back (wink!)

Incidentally their strongest tang on hardest use military knife they call their "full tang" which is actually only 2/3rds depth of ricasso with only top exposed on handle. It is "only" 1/4"x 3/4" and i do not believe has been broken since introduced in the Korean war....all the rest are straight hidden tangs. Neither they nor Kabar have ever welded a tang...a welded tang is asking for failure as welding causes micro cracks which is why stressed welds inspected until (not if) they fail on planes and subs. I have had issue knives fail and as always, it is about 1" behind guard where hand tries to drive through handle in chopping. Cheapest 1095 they can find and left too hard is culprit.

Most folk just do not understand how keepers on back are mainly insurance if handle material a loose drive fit and properly glued. My favorite Randalls have nothing BUT glue and worst one has ever done is develop a click/tic at ricasso.

And again and last time, "rat tail" is relatively new and disparaging phrase, and DOES describe some tangs accurately, but is a product cheapening misuse of terms in describing the HI product. Forums broadcast to the world, and an often ignorant world. Let us educate them properly
 
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Mtn,
No need to turn this ugly.
I asked a simple question at the beginning of this thread & it's only deteriorated.

I recall rat-tail files & rat-tail combs from real life 50 years ago, and it's a common tern in the rest of the knife world.
Rat-tail tang is not recent & I've never encountered anybody but you who finds it disparaging. It IS widely used.
It is NOT disparaging of HI or any other products, and it is not misused.
I'm out of this one.

Thanks again to those who provided useful help.
Denis
 
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