Testing for J.S. or M.S.? Any questions?

Ok. Great questions and I want to get into these in some detail. However, I am way behind for the Seattle show and want to take some pics etc... Let this suffice for a few more days if you will...

First, let's start with question #3 by Patrice. Checklist:
a) is the ricasso perfectly rectangular and square and parallel in the three directions? (not the side towards the blade.)
b) are the shoulders square and have at least 1/16" flat contact point?
c) is the guard slot bigger on the backside (relief) and just a little smaller than the ricasso thickness on the front?

You guys know all this stuff already, right? I'm sure there are tons of threads on this, but here is my take. The place where I used to have the most problems was with the ricasso itself and not the actual guard. You can't get square shoulders if the faces of the ricasso aren't parallel. So, I need you to check it very closely with calipers and make it perfect. The plunges are based off of the ricasso and the edge itself is based off of the ricasso. If you have a tapered tang, it is based off of the ricasso. So, if you are having guard fit-up trouble, make your ricasso perfect.

Next, I had trouble making the shoulders perfectly perpendicular even with the carbide faced file-guide. Take your time and file/sand from both directions. You always tend to remove more material from the direction the file/belt is moving. Even with the carbide faces, you still want to go at if from both sides. Trust me. There is a really cool way of checking the square when you're done, but I don't know if Tim Hancock wants me to share it. Possibly it has been shared here before... (hint: think of using a common house-hold item in a way to enlarge, visually, any errors you might have trouble seeing. - and it's not a magnifying glass - you should be using that anyway.)

And for the final press-fit, I really like the jig that clamps to the tang and then you can dial up two bolts to squeeze the guard onto the shoulders. Get one of those. I've seen a cool alluminum one here in one of the threads recently. I know Uncle Al's sells one and I bet Nathan makes one too. Be slow and deliberate in every step here. Make each one perfect and your result will be better than mine. I hate fitting guards and only do about one a year. Good luck.
 
Michael Rader said:
You guys know all this stuff already, right? I'm sure there are tons of threads on this, but here is my take. The place where I used to have the most problems was with the ricasso itself and not the actual guard. You can't get square shoulders if the faces of the ricasso aren't parallel. So, I need you to check it very closely with calipers and make it perfect. The plunges are based off of the ricasso and the edge itself is based off of the ricasso. If you have a tapered tang, it is based off of the ricasso. So, if you are having guard fit-up trouble, make your ricasso perfect.

Next, I had trouble making the shoulders perfectly perpendicular even with the carbide faced file-guide. Take your time and file/sand from both directions. You always tend to remove more material from the direction the file/belt is moving. Even with the carbide faces, you still want to go at if from both sides. Trust me. There is a really cool way of checking the square when you're done, but I don't know if Tim Hancock wants me to share it. Possibly it has been shared here before... (hint: think of using a common house-hold item in a way to enlarge, visually, any errors you might have trouble seeing. - and it's not a magnifying glass - you should be using that anyway.)
Click to expand...

There is a video in the video sticky thread where he mentions using a mirror
 
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Michael Rader said:
There is a really cool way of checking the square when you're done, but I don't know if Tim Hancock wants me to share it. Possibly it has been shared here before... (hint: think of using a common house-hold item in a way to enlarge, visually, any errors you might have trouble seeing. - and it's not a magnifying glass - you should be using that anyway.)
Click to expand...

Mirror mirror...

Not to be a dick about it, but Mr Hancock has little to say on this one Michael as I personally have it in print from about 10 yrs before TH says he made his first knife (Barney and Loveless; 1978). Good trick though.

Thank you for sharing your valuable time and for starting this interesting thread. Would love to buy you a beer or three some day but don't look now; there is a laser-shooting whip cracking sabertooth right behind you wearing an "I heart Seattle" t-shirt.
 
Andy Lewis said:
...don't look now; there is a laser-shooting whip cracking sabertooth right behind you wearing an "I heart Seattle" t-shirt.
Click to expand...

Ha ha. Tim mentioned it at a Hammer-In and I just like to give credit when I can.

Yup, clamp the tang (safely) in a vise, point the tip of your knife up at your eye (safely) press a little piece of mirror squarely up to the flat of the shoulder and look straight down the blade edge or spine. If you are out of square it will be very obvious. Great trick. I guess some guys polish the tops of their guards for this effect as well.
 
It is mentioned in "How to Make Knives" that Buster Warenski mirror polished his front guard faces to achieve that...
 
I see Patrice and Fiddleback have a hard time with finishing. As well do many of us. I would recommend, at least for the purpose of the testing process, doing it by hand. Take it to 220 or even 400 on the machine then just suck it up and sit at the bench for a couple hours and do it by hand. I don't care how good you get you will never do a better job finishing than by hand. I have not seen a single knife submitted for judging machine finished. The rules say you can but it is very hard to get it the way the judges are going to approve. This is where it will be even harder for Patrice if he wants to use hollow grinds.

Something to think about. Testing is a one time thing if you pass, so long as you keep your ABS membership in good standing. You may have to do some things to get through the process you may not normally do. Even to the point of making more "traditional" looking knives.(not directed at anyone in particular) I am not saying you have to make cookie cutter knives. I have seen some pretty cool and innovative knives brought in for judging. They passed but the maker also had a variety of simple plain clean looking knives too. Once you get through the testing you can challenge yourself my making more cool looking out of the box stuff. I am by no means saying drop your quality after the test. I am saying we all know what the judges like to see design wise, it makes it easier if you take this into consideration. Also your skills will get much better and you will be able to get those near perfect plunges and square ricasso shoulders easier and even without jigs. But when I finally do my MS I will use every jig and measure every shoulder for depth and parallel and take 10 times longer to build my test knives than normal. Just to make sure I don't have to do it over again...
 
Thanks a lot Michael. The timing is perfect cause by the time I have put all your advices to work and can get back here for results you'll be done with the Seattle show for sure. I already see a few things I can definitely improve on. :thumbup:
 
When I look at my current knives, I only see the flaws. I see where I need to go. When I get one back from a customer that is a few year old is when I notice improvement. I like that moment. Especially if the knife has been used hard and held up well. Thats a good feeling.

My plan for getting better finishes is the same as it has been the whole time. Practice it a lot! Thats my style.

AC, the Twin Blades guys gave the same advice. They were board with my belt finishes and want to see hand rubbing on my guild knives. (Man. I hate sanding steel.) Its something I know I am going to have to incorporate into a few pieces. I'm dreading it though. Finishing day isn't my favorite. Everything is on the line. The grinds have to be right. I can't put it down because my hands are off and come back later. There isn't many extra minutes and I certainly don't want to spend them sanding steel. The lion is right back there man, and Thursday is a wide open sprint. I have 20 tangs to taper, and 43 knives to finish grind. (3 belts on each knife currently) Hope y'all have a good day grinding. I'm back downstairs.
 
I hate to even offer advice on here but here is something I picked up at Jason Knight's shop. He does a press fit guard (no filed shoulders) but takes a dremel and notches out a pocket on the shoulders at the spine/ricasso 90 degree angle. I had the same issues with there being a small gap there. This combined with filing a slight angle for the blade to nest in helped a lot.

Here is a picture, didn't make sense until I saw it.

2yl60xx.jpg


255oswl.jpg



I'm getting really frustrated by getting an even finish on the spines and tangs of my full tang knives. It seems like it takes forever. Especially when the back of the blade has a curve to it. I'm thinking I might buy a 10 inch wheel just for that.

See look at this curve on the spine. I have a flat platen, 2 inch wheel, and 5 inch wheel and I'm having a hard time getting it dialed it smoothly. I'm asking because this is an issue I've had repeatedly, having a hard time getting on top of it. Thanks.

9pvzb4.jpg
 
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Michael, I have one question (many really, but don't know how to figure this one out.) I have been struggling with how the front of the handle fits on a kitchen knife. I am referring to where to place the front of the scales in relation to the blade. I try to get the front edge of the scales at the balance point in a pinch grip, but on longer blades, the scales "look" too far forward. Do people taper the tangs on kitchen knives as well? It looks good, but is this based on esthetics, or do we focus on balance?
 
Shaw. If I were you, I'd devise a padded jaw that would hold the knife handle in a way so that you could hand-sand/drag-out the spine finish from tip to tang.
Willie. I don't make kitchen knives with scales, so all I can really tell you is to look at other knives in that style and take some design tips from them. Work with the knife yourself and also get your knives in the hands of people that use them for hours at a time. That will give you what you need to know about that - it is a very important part of the kitchen knife to get right, so it's worth doing some more research.
 
Michael Rader said:
Shaw. If I were you, I'd devise a padded jaw that would hold the knife handle in a way so that you could hand-sand/drag-out the spine finish from tip to tang.
Willie. I don't make kitchen knives with scales, so all I can really tell you is to look at other knives in that style and take some design tips from them. Work with the knife yourself and also get your knives in the hands of people that use them for hours at a time. That will give you what you need to know about that - it is a very important part of the kitchen knife to get right, so it's worth doing some more research.
Click to expand...

I spent much of the day yesterday browsing the kitchen knife forum, and the kitchen knife for sale forum, and the scales appear to be where they look best. Not being able to hold them, I could not assess balance, but from what I know from my own knives, they could not balance well. I suspect this is common until you get to the high end knives. I will keep looking. This is only an issue with over 9" blades. One of my customers in cue was a line cook. I am doing a series of three knives at materials cost and he has agreed to provide feedback, which should help.

Edit: I am not meaning to criticize anyone's work. There is no mention of balance in the majority of the posts. I am trying to figure out if its overlooked, if its assumed, or if I simply have the wrong idea.

Shaw, the guard figment you showed should help a lot! I was using a flexible file and trying to file the centre of the shoulder down. This looks way better!
 
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The Seattle International Knife Show went quite well and no one came up to me with a knife with electrical tape on the handle and asked, "so, what do you think of this?" I'm kinda disappointed now... I met Salem and checked out Chuck's cool bowie with his no-clay etch hamon. Salem's hamon polishing was great on his monster 12" knife. Saw some other guys from the forums there too. Unfortunately, no poster with a saber-tooth tiger... So, it looks like I must make some small changes in how I answer questions:

So, the best way to remove 220 grit scratches from your blade is to use a hardened steel plate as your backing for 60 grit sand-paper. Scrub your blade at 45 degree angles. Then switch to 36 grit paper and use circular motions. Then find some 24 grit paper and sand perpendicular to blade. From here a 2000 grit hand-rubbed finish will be a piece of cake.

Update to fitting a guard: Don't use file-jigs to square your shoulders before fitting a guard. Just use a framing square and free-hand it in with a rasp. Any more questions!!!
 
Are we feeling a little giddy today??? I guess if anyone takes your advice it will be next year before they get back on the forums after taking out 24grit scratches with 2000:eek:

Great Show BTW. Great to see those who made it. Hope we have even better turnout next year.
 
Little tongue in cheek there Andy. He is feeling his oats I suppose after having a VERY Successful show this weekend.
 
Yes - Just playin'.
So, checking in: anyone here testing for J.S. or M.S. this June? Want to show me a knife or two?
 
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