The Chinese Made “D2” Explosion

[Gramps]

Again, I've only dealt with Steel Will's Chinese D2, but it performed admirably. I broke down all of the cardboard from the holidays with a Cutjack. Enough to fill a large bin 3 times over; probably 500 or so cuts. It wouldn't shave hair anymore, but would still cleanly slice paper. A little stropping had it back to shaving sharp save for one little tiny chip.

...thanks for posting your impressions of Steel Will's Chinese D2; it's very helpful to have your real world experience to reference.

 

[b00n]

I will just add this: Chinese Quality Control Standards are lower than European ones. I know that first hand from work, we have different batches of the same product that wasn't suitable for installation in Europe but suitable for the Chinese market. (Visual Defects unrelated to function in our case.)
I'm not saying there are different levels of D2 or that anybody fakes anything, just higher tolerances. That's what I can say from personal experience.

 

[GalvanizedHero]

Thanks for your opinion, but I don’t see how any of that answers the original question. I simply wanted to have this be a place we can discuss the quality of the D2 knives coming out of China recently and how they perform. I suspect the differences in performance to be caused by different variants of D2 being sourced for different makers, and of course heat treat. This is in regards to knives made by legitimate companies that are not participating in copyright infringement. Please do not discuss DHGate or any of the other sources for fakes/clones my thread. Thanks.

It sounds like you want to be convinced that these knives are a bargain, I can't help you there but if you'd like a chemist or a metallurgist to put some chinese steel under a microscope and tell you what it's made of you could probably take it to a uni and slip some some college kid a couple bucks. What I can do is teach you that there are no "versions" of d2. There's d2 and then there's chinese mystery metal.

Buying amazon d2 knives under the brand name "happy fun time knife company" isn't any better than buying knives from dhgate just so you're completely aware. dhgate is also an excellent source for trainers and spare parts. As someone with lots of experience using chinese knives from amazon sold as plenty of different steels including d2 and elmax - none of it performed better than 440c.

 

[DelialFallen]

Someone is talking out of their a$$.

 

[TheGasMan]

My Ontario R2D2 is very good Taiwanese D2 IMO. I, like others, would be surprised to find out the steel is being shipped there for manufacturing, at least from out of that region. I also have Milwaukee Hardline in D2 that is super hard and chipped out on me a little. Good work knife... just unforgiving.

 

[skyhorse]

While D2 isn't one of " my own " personal favorites, it's also used in some pretty high end knives as well. Feb Blade Magazine.V

 

[OppositeJay]

It sounds like you want to be convinced that these knives are a bargain, I can't help you there but if you'd like a chemist or a metallurgist to put some chinese steel under a microscope and tell you what it's made of you could probably take it to a uni and slip some some college kid a couple bucks. What I can do is teach you that there are no "versions" of d2. There's d2 and then there's chinese mystery metal.

Buying amazon d2 knives under the brand name "happy fun time knife company" isn't any better than buying knives from dhgate just so you're completely aware. dhgate is also an excellent source for trainers and spare parts. As someone with lots of experience using chinese knives from amazon sold as plenty of different steels including d2 and elmax - none of it performed better than 440c.

I don’t typically buy knives in this price range. I just wanted to make a thread to try and shed some light on material sourcing for these inexpensive knives that use D2. If you can’t understand that their are different formulations of D2 and that they do not necessarily perform the same, Look at the different steel formulas in the links provided in this thread. I assure you a steel with .15% Vanadium will act differently than one with 1% Vanadium will. For example, K110 and CR12Mov, both which are called “D2” in their respective countries.

 

[OppositeJay]

Mods, since this thread keeps veering toward the illegitimate part of the knife industry, feel free to lock it if need be. I pretty much have my answer which is that these companies are indeed using locally-sourced D2 or equivalent. Thanks to those that answered my questions, and if we can stay on-topic it would be nice to hear from others as well.

 

[tyyreaun]

Mods, since this thread keeps veering toward the illegitimate part of the knife industry, feel free to lock it if need be. I pretty much have my answer which is that these companies are indeed using locally-sourced D2 or equivalent. Thanks to those that answered my questions, and if we can stay on-topic it would be nice to hear from others as well.

I think the answer you can get from this thread is "no one knows". You may want to try posting on the knifemaker's forum, see if anyone has experience working with D2 sourced from different suppliers/regions, and if they've seen any difference.

And be careful how you word the question so you don't get pulled off-topic again

 

[tyyreaun]

And to everyone whose answer is "don't buy cheap Chinese steel and you'll be fine" - of course, buying steel from reputable manufacturers, guarantees you get the good stuff! For example, a Japanese steel conglomerate that supplies industrial steel to major commercial projects around the world would never play with the composition of their product!

Oh, wait:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...tory-standards-losing-customers-idUSKBN1CP09Y
Nevermind!

/Yes, Kobe Steel and Crucible/Bohler aren't the same, but you get the point - anyone can cheat and/or have bad QC

 

[Mo2]

https://xf.bladeforums.com/threads/any-experience-with-nathans-d2.1470902/#post-16929136

I probably have more experience with my D2 than anybody, I have them around the shop, my own skinning knife, and my steak knife. I use it all the time, it's probably my favorite steel and it has been running circles around and handing out spankings to the stainless super steels for years.

D2 is probably my favorite steel and I do a very good job with it. My heat treat for it has developed over the years and I feel it represents the best in the industry. I've been very open with other makers about what I'm doing with it and my techniques for it are now widely adopted to the point I see new makers talking about the process and unaware where it came from.

Complex steels like D2 usually have a basic "built in" grain size that results from their alloy and its reaction to an anneal. By default D2 is usually around 12-13 intercept grain size which is relatively fine grain.

Pre-quenching in D2, M2 and other complex steels is a grain refinement step that violates the "only one austenitizing per anneal" rule for these steels meant to avoid the extreme grain growth they're prone to on a second heat which creates a large fish scale style fracture. When done improperly it can have no effect or can lead to intercept grain size as low as 1 (extremely coarse).

Prequenching, when done properly, can refine the grain upwards of 17 or more, which is a very fine grain condition. This is based on research by Teledyne VASCO.

Before going further, let me state that grain refinement to this level serves no purpose in-of-itself and very fine grain, beyond a certain point, doesn't make a better knife. This is a widely misunderstood concept among makers and knife nuts. That's not what this is about.

There are a couple steps about pre-quenching I don't recommend to other makers because they have to be adjusted for each heat batch because the variations in alloy content and material condition effect the heat treat response and can lead to problems if done improperly. This is one reason I don't use D2 much any more, because every single batch needs special attention to be fully optimized. This is particularly true going from one manufacturer to another, because D2 is like hotdogs, they can all put different ingredients into it, and a .8 vanadium will react differently than a 1.2. But, when the time and temp is dialed in it refines the grain (which is not a bad thing) and puts carbon into solution, reducing the soak time and temp for the second heat which I believe may be very significant in minimizing naturally occurring structures that play hell with edge stability such as RA that converts in temper rather than during the quench.

The end result of a fully optimized D2 is a durable knife with outstanding edge retention, good corrosion resistance, and that toothy D2 edge that just keeps cutting. While not as durable as 3V, it's more durable than most, and it just keeps cutting and cutting.

Sometimes D2 can be somewhat brittle, but our final cut testing yesterday of a knife from this batch had a thin D2 knife at 18 DPS at HRC 63 cutting some 4D nails without chipping.

We're using Crucible D2 for this batch, but not their CPM version. This was not to save cost (less than $2 difference per blade) but to avoid the small rounded carbides that fall free from the edge. It's a good process to promote toughness, but it spoils one of the best properties of D2 in a knife, so we use a conventional melt.

If you'll try it, I promise you'll like it.

for me, all depends on the ht.

I've seen so many Chinese brands that either use something other than d2 or piss d2 ht... that, unless its proven I'll avoid it. Cedric Ada has a bunch of d2 tests that are wildly different.

rat 2 in d2 just came out , I'll probably get one soon. it may not be optimal like cpk d2 but its decent enough and is actually d2.

 

[Area FiftyOne]

I have a Steel Will D2 knife and a Polish made custom fixed blade in D2. They both sharpen, perform, and last like my American D2 knives. I have watched Cedrik Ada on Youtube and noticed that he was "confused" over the D2 performance of some of the Chinese made D2 steels. I am very leery about D2 knives now. There are plenty of custom made knives in other good steels available and remember that the grind and profile of the knife can make all the difference in the world on the knife performance. Don't eliminate ALL Chinese made D2 knives. Some are great. The same can be said of 440C steel. Ganzo (Chinese) does a pretty good job with treating that steel properly. I have some other Chinese 440C that is not so good. Be very careful in what you buy!!!

 

[Icehawk]

I wouldn't spend more than $30 on anything made in china no matter what's on the label...

All the "high end" knives made in china can be had for ~$15 on dhgate, made from the same bargain basement steel, on the same machines and cooked in the same half century old ovens.

kizer, we and rike are blatant rip offs of 25 dollar kershaws only more expensive for a less reputable name brand. Not sure what I'm missing out on there.​

So you are claiming that the WE/Ferrum Forge/Massdrop knifes are blatant ripoffs of Kershaw made from bargain basement steel and can be found on DHGate? Even if we ignore "all the "high end"" BS it's still not true. I peruse DHGate and plenty of other Chinese sites, just bought two dive lights in fact, and not every knife is on there man. Plenty are but hey if you want to back yourself into a corner where you won't buy anything that is over $30 and Chinese it's your loss. Eventually I learned there was music made post 1993

 

[OppositeJay]

I think the answer you can get from this thread is "no one knows". You may want to try posting on the knifemaker's forum, see if anyone has experience working with D2 sourced from different suppliers/regions, and if they've seen any difference.

And be careful how you word the question so you don't get pulled off-topic again

Thanks for the advice, it is well-taken! I suppose the old adage, “buyer beware” is just as appropriate as it ever was. As more and more people get these knives into their hands, I am sure a consensus will form with regard to who is doing D2 right and who is not.

 

[tyyreaun]

So you are claiming that the WE/Ferrum Forge/Massdrop knifes are blatant ripoffs of Kershaw made from bargain basement steel and can be found on DHGate? Even if we ignore "all the "high end"" BS it's still not true. I peruse DHGate and plenty of other Chinese sites, just bought two dive lights in fact, and not every knife is on there man. Plenty are but hey if you want to back yourself into a corner where you won't buy anything that is over $30 and Chinese it's your loss. Eventually I learned there was music made post 1993

I especially like the DHGate knockoffs of other DHGate knives. I was trying to find a Maxace Covenant a while back, didn't pull the trigger before Maxace stopped selling them, and all I can find now are knockoffs :/

 

[Mo2]

Don't eliminate ALL Chinese made D2 knives. Some are great. The same can be said of 440C steel. Ganzo (Chinese) does a pretty good job with treating that steel properly. I have some other Chinese 440C that is not so good. Be very careful in what you buy!

1. ganzo steel is super soft. Cedric's tests alone show its not good.
2. ganzo copy patents, designs etc. don't support that.
3. tests have shown these can cause damage to the user in some cases.
4. millions of other designs that are original and cost $20 are plentiful.

as for dhgate... most of them lie about the steel type and if not they are usually just bad knives.

 

[GalvanizedHero]

1. ganzo steel is super soft. Cedric's tests alone show its not good.
2. ganzo copy patents, designs etc. don't support that.
3. tests have shown these can cause damage to the user in some cases.
4. millions of other designs that are original and cost $20 are plentiful.

as for dhgate... most of them lie about the steel type and if not they are usually just bad knives.

dhgate absolutely lies about their steel but for $20 who cares. I second that about the original designs for $15-$30 - kershaws for example. My daily drivers are mostly kershaws in 8cr. They're made in china but carry the kershaw name so there's at least some degree of quality control and some expectation of the quality of the steel.

 

[OppositeJay]

Let’s try to get back on-topic. The only personal experience I have in this area is the recent Boker I picked up, the Jason Stout Lateralus. I typically don’t get Boker Plus knives, but I really liked the design, and the custom is HARD to find. I have been extremely surprised by this knife, it’s an awful lot of knife for $70. Edge retention has been excellent, and I have broken down a mountain of cardboard with it and only needed to strop to keep it sharp. I reached out to Boker to see where they source their D2, but haven’t heard back.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

It What I can do is teach you that there are no "versions" of d2. There's d2 and then there's chinese mystery metal.
.

There are plenty of versions of D2 including import, domestically produced, CPM particle metallurgy, spray formed PSF27, electro slag re-melt. Plenty of chemistry variations too. There are lots of versions of D2 that behave differently and have different heat treat response.

It's an old school alloy without marketing behind it that isn't very glamorous but the fact is it can frequently outperform many super steels in real world use. It doesn't enjoy the reputation it could because there are plenty of sorry examples of it out there, but a good D2 with an optimal heat treat can outperform a lot of the popular super steels in real world edge retention.

But there are certainly many versions of it, some being better than others.

 

[Mo2]

There are plenty of versions of D2 including import, domestically produced, CPM partial metallurgy, spray formed PSF27, electro slag re-melt. Plenty of chemistry variations too. There are lots of versions of D2 that behave differently and have different heat treat response.

It's an old school alloy without marketing behind it that isn't very glamorous but the fact is it can frequently outperform many super steels in real world use. It doesn't enjoy the reputation it could because there are plenty of sorry examples of it out there, but a good D2 with an optimal heat treat can outperform a lot of the popular super steels in real world edge retention.

But there are certainly many versions of it, some being better than others.

for those who dont know all the different d2's check out zknives with all the Proprietary Equivalents

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=d2