The problem with 'survival' knives

[Gaston444]

Sorry, but you must understand how ridiculous this all sounds. I mean I get it. You are not in America. Since you don't list it we don't know where the heck you are.

But come on. Sticking a 9-10" bladed knife (so 14-15" OAL) inside your pants for the comfort of others? Not wanting to have a knife open carried for fear of bad guys taking it? Not wanting to carry a knife open for fear it will get wet? Not carrying a knife for fear of losing it? If you fear losing a knife to a snag it sounds like your sheath system isn't up to snuff.

You have come up with a lot of reasons not to carry a knife which I just don't get

But hey, if it works for you :thumbup:

You must realize how ridiculous it is that it sounds ridiculous...

I don't carry inside the pants for other's confort: It actually is more confortable to carry like that, however beyond your cognition it might be... And if you ask me what is an EDC knife, then it is something along the lines of a 9" hollow handle that springs to mind (not some $500 folder with a 3.5" blade that a boxcutter could cut rings around)...

I do carry these knives a lot... Hence the notion that you have that and nothing else... This is why to me the notion of large fixed blade knives without hollow handles is utterly ridiculous to me...: I used to carry that, having a bulkier sheath for the items, but now I know better...: I have learned the errors of my ways... To me having a handle that is wasting bulk is silly, but I don't usually go around telling people they have it all wrong to use a handle full of completely useless weight...

Sorry if this is all so radical that it is disturbing...: It's a big world out there...

Gaston

 

[AntDog]

That's because you are in America. Fortunately, the whole planet is not America... Given that it is less convenient, less secure, less confortable, more snag prone and damaging to a large knife to carry it in the open, I still don't find this in any way a good idea, even if you are in America...

Of course if you also carry a gun, openly or not, then you also don't care about meeting idiots. But I don't carry guns, so I'd rather anticipate what idiots are likely to think. Unless of course, you feel entitled to meet intelligent people: You can always count on that...

Gaston

No. No, no, no, no, no.
Carrying a fixed blade openly does not make it less convenient. It makes it more so.
It does not make it less secure. It is exactly the same.
It does not make it less comfortable either. It is preposterous to think that carrying a huge chunk of metal and kydex or leather in your waistband is more comfortable than wearing it outside your pants.
More snag prone? Eh, maybe. However, if you have a sheath made for the way you want to carry, by a competent maker, it's far less of a worry than you put forth.
More damaging? Nope. Not one bit. At all.

Your statement about guns - ummmm, ok. So, if I carry a gun, concealed or not, I "don't care about meeting idiots"? What in the cornbread hell does that even mean? The gun is FOR the idiots. If somebody means to do me or my family harm, that's what the gun is for. I don't feel entitled to meet intelligent people, but I sure like to.
Sorry, but I am in awe of what you posted. And not in a good way.

 

[Gaston444]

No. No, no, no, no, no.
Carrying a fixed blade openly does not make it less convenient. It makes it more so.
It does not make it less secure. It is exactly the same.
It does not make it less comfortable either. It is preposterous to think that carrying a huge chunk of metal and kydex or leather in your waistband is more comfortable than wearing it outside your pants.
More snag prone? Eh, maybe. However, if you have a sheath made for the way you want to carry, by a competent maker, it's far less of a worry than you put forth.
More damaging? Nope. Not one bit. At all.

Your statement about guns - ummmm, ok. So, if I carry a gun, concealed or not, I "don't care about meeting idiots"? What in the cornbread hell does that even mean? The gun is FOR the idiots. If somebody means to do me or my family harm, that's what the gun is for. I don't feel entitled to meet intelligent people, but I sure like to.
Sorry, but I am in awe of what you posted. And not in a good way.

I think anyone in the world who is not an American will understand the concept of not drawing unwanted attention with a huge knife on your hip... I think you probably have to be an American to even begin to have an issue with that... It is quite funny really...

As for the confort of inside-the-pants carry, did you experiment with it? What is your experience in doing that? Some are very unconfortable, like the Chris Reeves Jereboam, for some obscure reason, some are forgotten as soon as you slide them in, like the Neeley SA9 or even the Farid FB.

What huge chunk of weight? My 10" blade Lile "Mission" weights 16.9 ounces, that is 0.9 ounces more than the laughable BK-2 with a 5.25" blade... It chops almost exactly twice as well as my San Mai III Trailmaster, which has been known to leave some factory fresh Busse Battle Mistresses in its dust... 16.9 ounces spread over 15 inches is pretty much like carrying a large rigid feather...

The point about concealment is you need it more in the middle of nowhere, not less... It does occur to you that in the middle of nowhere you are further away from any help, does it not? If you carry a gun, then yes carry it openly (although even that could be debated: Why give out information if you don't have to?). But a knife is more of an enticement rather than a deterrent: If you don't get that, it's because you keep applying your way of looking at it, and assume your way of looking at it is inevitably relevant to anyone you might meet...

Also, from the opposite point of view, it might discourage some perfectly alright people from striking up a long conversation with you in the middle of nowhere...

However much you want this to still be the Wild West, when nobody gave a mind to such things, well eventually the world does move on...

Gaston

 

[AntDog]

I think anyone in the world who is not an American will understand the concept of not drawing unwanted attention with a huge knife on your hip... I think you probably have to be an American to even begin to have an issue with that... It is quite funny really...

As for the confort of inside-the-pants carry, did you experiment with it? What is your experience in doing that? Some are very unconfortable, like the Chris Reeves Jereboam, for some obscure reason, some are forgotten as soon as you slide them in, like the Neeley SA9 or even the Farid FB.

What huge chunk of weight? My 10" blade Lile "Mission" weights 16.9 ounces, that is 0.9 ounces more than the laughable BK-2 with a 5.25" blade... It chops almost exactly twice as well as my San Mai III Trailmaster, which has been known to leave some factory fresh Busse Battle Mistresses in its dust... 16.9 ounces spread over 15 inches is pretty much like carrying a large rigid feather...

The point about concealment is you need it more in the middle of nowhere, not less... It does occur to you that in the middle of nowhere you are further away from any help, does it not? If you carry a gun, then yes carry it openly (although even that could be debated: Why give out information if you don't have to?). But a knife is more of an enticement rather than a deterrent: If you don't get that, it's because you keep applying your way of looking at it, and assume your way of looking at it is inevitably relevant to anyone you might meet...

Also, from the opposite point of view, it might discourage some perfectly alright people from striking up a long conversation with you in the middle of nowhere...

However much you want this to still be the Wild West, when nobody gave a mind to such things, well eventually the world does move on...

Gaston

I think you have to be aware of your local knife laws to have any context of "drawing unwanted attention by having a huge knife on your hip", wouldn't you? (Where exactly do you live by the way? I'm in Houston, TX, USA).

As for in waistband carry, yes I've experimented with it. I'm no whelp. With a large knife (which is exactly what we're talking about) it's not as comfortable as a sheath worn outside the pants on a belt. Period.

Blah, blah blah, trailmaster better than a Busse Battle Mistress... You're whistlin' Dixie. Baloney. Has been proven. Do some research. Hell, the Basic 9 whomped the hell out of the Trailmaster a loooong time ago.

So, a knife is more of an enticement than a deterrent now? Lol, ok. And if I carry a gun, carry it openly? No thank you - in my area I have to keep it concealed, but it still blasts dirtbags just fine. See? Context is everything. Know how you said "the whole world thankfully isn't the USA?" Well, thankfully it isn't wherever you're from either.

Conversation in the middle of nowhere? I'd be genuinely hurt if somebody didn't stop along the trail and compliment me on my "exposed" fixed blade. I don't live my life and make the choices I make based on others, or their sensitive feelings that might be ruffled in such a situation. Gosh, it might keep somebody from getting into a conversation with me because of what I carry around! Whatever will I do?

I don't want the world to be the old west. The world can move on all it wants to. I'll still be contextually here in Texas.

 

[killgar]

Let me see if I've got this right-

People shouldn't openly carry a knife out in the wilderness because-

It might entice people to attack you.

It might deter strangers from wanting to socialize with you.

It might snag on things.

The sheath might get wet.

I'm sorry, but some points of view are so beyond the realm of logic that no amount of logic can possibly prevail. And this applies no matter what country you are in.

If you don't want to openly carry a fixed-blade while out in the wild, then more power to you. Everyone's entitled to their personal opinions an preferences. The reasoning behind some peoples opinions and preferences is simply beyond my comprehension.

 

[trevitrace]

I'd think a sheath tucked inside one's eventually sweaty adventure pantaloons would take significantly longer to dry than the sheath airing itself out on a belt.

 

[Camillus]

So I just ordered a BK 15 this morning, it won out over the others due to the sheath. But coincidently I had a Mora Pro C turn up in the mail tonight. Wow, what can I say, this is something else. Mora taken to a whole new level. It is a superb knife. I will report back on the BK 15 and through in some thoughts on the comparison. I have a feeling these two knives will give a fairly good indication of heavy duty vs medium duty pros and cons.

Rest assured my testing will NOT involve its ability to bash stuff

http://youtu.be/UQ9eOIAgOUE

 

[Cobalt]

Like Sword and Shield said later, there is some similarity between the two, but there is a massive difference in the end if their priorities is confused. Bushcrafting is to willfully practice different wilderness skills to survive and thrive in outdoor environment. "Outdoor Survival", is one being subject to disaster/loss/injured without choice, objective is to stay alive and find rescue asap, hopefully within 72 hours.

So a 'bushcrafter' may bring a 'survival kit' along with his 'bushcrafter' gears, and the bushcrafting skills/gears may improve the 'outdoor survival' chances, but doesn't mean they are the most ideal.

[video=youtube;U26M09zgZF4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U26M09zgZF4[/video]
The gentleman here use a Vic Farmer to help saw off a trunk, imagine a fixed blade similar in size, how long will it take to baton until the trunk will separate in two? A 5in+ thick spine bushcraft 'chopper' knife may baton thru that easier, but will carry that knife expand more calories and in some way lower our chances in 'outdoor survival'? Will the same "chopper" be universally useful in tropical, arctic or dessert survival situation?

Green and Blue -- I totally agree.

Red-- A multitool is one very effective piece of gear and honestly, I can't imagine why any kit would not have one. You probably get more use out of everything it has even more so than the blade. And in a 72 hour episode it will do all that needs to be done. I prefer leatherman myself, I think they make the most effective tools like the Wave. In any case we were comparing folding knives to fixed not multi tools. But since you threw that in, I say a big blade will do everything better than the Vic and be a good defensive weapon in addition to all else. This GSO 10 would have gone through that small branch in less than 30 seconds instead of 2.5 minutes.

So would this:

However, you can carry a multitool all the time. A big blade or hatchet usually goes in a pack.

 

[craytab]

Sorry guys but this is getting more strange. Quick rundown:

You know what find utterly amazing? That people would think they can get so far away from civilization that they would feel confortable carrying openly a fixed blade knife... I mean openly on their belt...

Just to not inspire disconfort to others, in the middle of nowhere, where it is scary enough to come accross strangers, I would never carry openly any knife of any sort... And do you really want to inspire a moron some ideas he might not have come up with on his own?

I slip my 9-10" blade knife inside the pants, under my jacket, and that's end of story...: Even sometimes with a small pouch in front of the sheath, it usually rides very well: I sometimes cut out the pouch in front if it doesn't... The biggest concern is superglueing all the main threads to prevent fraying...

I find the idea of a nice expensive knife riding out in the open on a belt absurd for at least another reason: At the lightest rain the knife is exposed to water, and the sheath might accumulate water which will take days to dry out, even a plastic one, if I put nylon fabric inserts inside to stabilize and protect the blade from scratching...

I don't carry inside the pants for other's confort

But wait, you said this remember:

Just to not inspire disconfort to others, in the middle of nowhere, where it is scary enough to come accross strangers, I would never carry openly any knife of any sort... And do you really want to inspire a moron some ideas he might not have come up with on his own?

I do carry these knives a lot... Hence the notion that you have that and nothing else... This is why to me the notion of large fixed blade knives without hollow handles is utterly ridiculous to me...

I think anyone in the world who is not an American will understand the concept of not drawing unwanted attention with a huge knife on your hip... I think you probably have to be an American to even begin to have an issue with that... It is quite funny really...

I love it when people insult you personally about where you live but don't list where they live.

This thing has totally jumped the shark now. No need to further respond.

But again, as I said before but you missed, do what you want if it makes you happy :thumbup:

So I just ordered a BK 15 this morning.....I will report back on the BK 15 and through in some thoughts on the comparison.....Rest assured my testing will NOT involve its ability to bash stuff

Well good for you! it is a fine knife! I wouldn't post an update here as this is a mess but hey, do what ya want. Make a Nice thorough review with lots of cool pictures and post it up over in reviews and testing. Link it here. We love nice reviews with pics posted here for other members to enjoy. It also goes to support the forums with valuable content. Youtube videos? Not so much.....

 

[Thomas Linton]

Gaston, you do understand that people came here - America - because they didn't want to be there? Judging people in other places by the values of one's own country is a mistake we have often made, and others make the same error. It seems to be part of being human.

To bad you have no volcanoes in your country.

 

[22-rimfire]

So I just ordered a BK 15 this morning, it won out over the others due to the sheath. But coincidently I had a Mora Pro C turn up in the mail tonight. Wow, what can I say, this is something else. Mora taken to a whole new level. It is a superb knife. I will report back on the BK 15 and through in some thoughts on the comparison. I have a feeling these two knives will give a fairly good indication of heavy duty vs medium duty pros and cons.

Rest assured my testing will NOT involve its ability to bash stuff.

Good choice on the BK-15. As I have mentioned in this and other threads, it is one of my favorites. It is a knife that at first look, you think, I would rather have a drop point. But, the the BK-15 is really a practical useful (and cost efficient) knife and one that I can do most knife tasks with.

You may still want something a little larger for "survival", but the BK-15 is one of my favorites for using in the woods.

Gaston, I can't imagine a knife inside my waistband of my pants as being more comfortable than a more traditional carry on the belt outside. You know what makes sense in your country. My thought is why you would want to carry a really large knife in that position anyway unless you're doing the Crocodile Dundee thing... "Now that's a knfie!"

 

[AreBeeBee]

Well, this has certainly been entertaining!

 

[Armadew]

I carry an ESEE4 when I'm hiking/camping. On my belt. If someone doesn't like it, it's their problem, not mine. <---Not is USA

 

[comis]

Once "wilderness survival" meant knowing how to survive in the wilderness with whatever you had available, including no man-made gear at all. Larry D. Olsen, still alive and teaching, wrote books on that topic: Outdoor Survival Skills (1968) and Wilderness Survival for the Boy Scouts. He started the Boulder Outdoor Survival School. He is a co-founder of the Rabbitstick gathering of primitive skills practitioners.

Today, the more recent definition is the one you set out, AKA "Modern Outdoor Survival."

I have nothing but my upmost respect for the old timers, whom posses the rare skill to not only survive, but even thrive in the wilderness. As stated in my post, I certainly am not an expert in this field, and maybe a student trying to learn more at best. However little I know about Larry Olsen, I surely do respect his dedication to the craft, especially his effort to educate and help the younger generation. :thumbup:


I guess what I'd like say is:

A) Given we all are in a knife forum discussing knife, and before finding a good 'survival knife', maybe we ought to understand more about different aspect of 'survival' itself? May it be primitive skill of outdoor living or finding rescue in an outdoor emergency situation. The outdoor environment may determine which blade is more adequate, and even affect our choices.

B) My concern for any outdoor activities is always safety first, which includes how to prevent and deal with outdoor emergency situation. To an average joe like me, good wilderness skills and adequate gears are both important in their own rights, and should serve my outdoor emergency/survival priorities jointly. The minute my arrogance allows me thinking one could substitute another, then I am just being disrespectful to mother nature, and foregoing my chances to 'survive' in an outdoor emergency situation.

Green and Blue -- I totally agree.

Red-- A multitool is one very effective piece of gear and honestly, I can't imagine why any kit would not have one. You probably get more use out of everything it has even more so than the blade. And in a 72 hour episode it will do all that needs to be done. I prefer leatherman myself, I think they make the most effective tools like the Wave. In any case we were comparing folding knives to fixed not multi tools. But since you threw that in, I say a big blade will do everything better than the Vic and be a good defensive weapon in addition to all else. This GSO 10 would have gone through that small branch in less than 30 seconds instead of 2.5 minutes.

So would this:

However, you can carry a multitool all the time. A big blade or hatchet usually goes in a pack.

I too like my GSO10, it's a good piece of gear and quite well made too.

I think we are probably in the same boat, to not think linearly when it comes to tool option in 'survival/emergency' situation. Just thinking out of the box, given the right situation, what I often curious about is, will a good folding saw and a smaller knife be a more effective combo than a chopper, and in some way safer than axe(at least this will be true for me)?

Btw, great axe, Gransfors is without doubt my favorite too.

 

[not2sharp]

I would say, that most of the time, the best survival gear would include a very large heavy-duty fixed blade and a large SAK multitool. The large fixed blade should be solid enough help build a fire and shelter, and heavy enough to anchor the victim to one location. The large SAK (something like a Swiss Champ) should include enough gadgets to keep them entertained for hours. Seriously, food hunting and preparation is not a concern; most people can run on their own body store for a month. Water and warmth are bigger problems; how much so depends on the environmental conditions. However, by far the biggest problem is people running off in an ill advised attempt to extract themselves. Unless, you have a good plan for getting to help, running around the woods in a panic will burn needed energy, expose you to further injuries and generally will make you that much harder to find.

n2s

 

[22-rimfire]

I would say, that most of the time, the best survival gear would include a very large heavy-duty fixed blade and a large SAK multitool. The large fixed blade should be solid enough help build a fire and shelter, and heavy enough to anchor the victim to one location. The large SAK (something like a Swiss Champ) should include enough gadgets to keep them entertained for hours. Seriously, food hunting and preparation is not a concern; most people can run on their own body store for a month. Water and warmth are bigger problems; how much so depends on the environmental conditions. However, by far the biggest problem is people running off in an ill advised attempt to extract themselves. Unless, you have a good plan for getting to help, running around the woods in a panic will burn needed energy, expose you to further injuries and generally will make you that much harder to find.

Once you realize you're lost or in trouble in the woods, it is difficult not to panic. Anyone who has spent a fair amount of time in the woods has probably experienced this. You settle down and relax a bit; take an hour. Then when you're thinking more clearly, assess your options based on the circumstances presented. If you feel that you'll have to spend the night, then make preparations for that option with what you have available to you.

Added: I might add that personal safety is paramount. Being in a panic, runnning or walking carelessly is a very good way to hurt yourself in even a short term emergency situation that you know you can figure out given some time. Having some gear with you and at least a general sense of geography and how things are laid out is important and this is where the compass comes in handy. I mentioned that I will be getting a whistle to add to my hiking gear in another thread. It is a smart thing to do and one that I'm surprised I hadn't done already. Guess I am used to being fairly confident knowing about where I am. But injuries happen and the whistle is useful even in areas where trails are fairly well traveled. You might have detoured off the trail to check out a some interesting feature and you get into trouble there.

 

[okto]

a) you do not need to split firewood

I hate to quibble, but that is just flat wrong. You need kindling and several sizes of split wood before you can get 2" branches to light, unless you douse them in gasoline.
I have to ask, and no disrespect intended: have you ever built a cooking fire without accelerant?

Apart from that, if you're actually stuck in the bush, you aren't gonna be able to be choosy about what fuel is around and it might not be ideal.
Say you find yourself with only mesquite wood to build a fire with. You damn sure need to split it, because that tough bark evolved to repel the Texas sun, anything that wants to eat it, and wildfires, and it's pretty good at not burning. Even the heartwood is super dense, so it needs to be split smaller than say, nice dry pine would.

 

[22-rimfire]

What about a assembling a pile of twigs rather than splitting larger wood. Splitting somewhat larger wood down to a useful size with a knife is a useful skill and I don't care what anyone thinks about that. However, it is not my first choice unless I am doing it for fun.

 

[orezona]

So I just ordered a BK 15 this morning, it won out over the others due to the sheath. But coincidently I had a Mora Pro C turn up in the mail tonight. Wow, what can I say, this is something else. Mora taken to a whole new level. It is a superb knife. I will report back on the BK 15 and through in some thoughts on the comparison. I have a feeling these two knives will give a fairly good indication of heavy duty vs medium duty pros and cons.

Rest assured my testing will NOT involve its ability to bash stuff

http://youtu.be/UQ9eOIAgOUE

Great choice! The 15 has been on my radar for way too long and I have yet to pick one up. I've already got a BK2 and BK16 so although I don't feel like I need a 15...
A lot of people on the KA-BAR and Becker Knife & Tool subforums have and love the 15.

 

[22-rimfire]

You need a BK-15. Get one before they are all gone. I like it better than the BK-16. That slim blade and extra inch or so of blade is useful for so many things. It is one of those blades that I have actually considered getting a backup just in case I loose or break it.