Tora Tora Tora ???

For myself I think a diversity of views & opinions actualy enrich the forum. Although I can see how a English newbie speaking with apparent authority can upset the proverbial applecart in such a cosy enviroment.

I can understand banning a sales rival.But Personaly I would have prefered a request for no sales pitches if that was the issue? {Actualy what was the issue?}{rhetorical questian} I wonder how long Sirupate would have then stayed around? I guess we will never know.

But obviously this is Bills or at the momment Rustys forum to run in any way they see fit & as a mere basic member I dont questian that.

Personaly I could not find any inaccuries in what Sirupate said regarding historical kukris or Gurkhas. Did any body else?

I have in the space of 10 minutes found 3 photos of British army Gurkhas in the 1960s 1970s & 80s all carrying long slim handled fairly straight kukris of sirupate or chitlangi styles, including the VC winners kukri posted by JP recently. So for any who disbelive that I suggest you get a better libary.

Spiral
 
"Sirupate" may be the real deal.

In searching the Internet, he just appears about a month ago as an EBay vendor and khukuri expert. Only post on British Blades is a "who is this?" post within last month. Nothing on Sword Forum or KF.

He seems to have a business "Tora Martial Arts Association" but I can't find any information on it. UK martial arts websir=tes and forums yield no hits.

His website (TORATORATORA.CO.UK) has been down for weeks.

I even bought a khukuri from him. It's appearance is Ok (yet to test metal), but not HI standard for non-blems. It came in a package with no return address.

I know who Powell and McMorrow and Uncle Bill are. Maybe we will come to know "Sirupate," whoever he is.
 
Hooray! Somebody who finally has one of their blades!

So what model do you have? In what way is it inferior to HI?

I like some of the models they have pictured but I have been hesitant to try any for lack of ANYBODY having one.

Let us know when you test the steel.
 
HD,

Bear in mind that I haven't tested the edge yet.

It is this company's interpretation of the the Maharaja of Jodphur Model - aluminum handle and full-length tang.

Wt.: 1 lb. 14 oz.
OA length: 18 3/4"
Handle: 5 3/4"
Drop: 3 1/2"
Thickness: 5/16"
Width: 2 1/4"

Blade shape: Sirupate marries AK (but without broad fullers) OR a more pointed BAS.

Fullers: Unlike actual plain-bladed WWI model, this has single chisled 3/32" fuller in first half of blade on each side. Very, VERY neatly done on left, much less so on right side -- like two different people executed it.

Cho: Original WW I khuk had shallow, plain vanilla cho. This has a very unusual and well-executed cho - sort of breast with nipple in bowl that starts 1/2" from bolster.

Finish: satin with scratches that did not polish out, especially above the cho on the right side.

When you run your fingers over the flats of the blade, there are no dips that I have come to expect from forged blades - very flat, parallel sides.

Edge: 13/16 flat bevel, then 3/32" convex to edge. 1.5 mm thick at start of final, convex bevel. Not knife sharp - won't cut paper, but bevels are uniform so good edge should follow.

Bolster: brass, traditional, and well-executed. Good fit to handle.

Butt: 1/4" thick brass butt cap is 1/32" smaller than handle all around and black tarnish spots sprinkled around. No big deal -- a few minutes w/ Brasso and a rag will fix. Some laha escaped in assembly but that can be cleaned up.

Handle: 1 3/8" max. diameter cast aluminum with a few minor pitts

Karda: 6" aluminum handled w/ some scratches and pits. Traditional shape and sharp.

Chakma: 6 1/8" aluminum handled w/ some scratches and pits and a 1/8" dia. pit where joins blade. Traditional shape and sharp corners.

Sheath: Not a side-accessed sheath like original but a more traditional sheath -- well executed black leather over wood w/ brass chape. Adjustable two-strap frog. Karda and Chakma fit well in spaces provided. Good, snug fit for khukuri.

Arrived well-packed in what I have come to think of as UK style (no box -- a "parcel") and with blade well-oiled (mineral oil, I think).

When my kid shows me how, picture to follow.

Questions?
 
spiraltwista, in no way was my post meant to try and quash diversity. Not do I believe was Rusty's. I did and do take offense, however, to Sirupate using the HI forum basically as a platform to promote his own products. Input and discussion are great, they are the lifeblood of this forum, but from his first couple of posts I have not liked his continual comparison of his own products to HI. This isn't the proper venue for such comparisons, not by a competitor. Hopefully a solution can be reached which is amenable to all.
 
Hello Everyone,

Rusty this is my last time, First of all very sorry to hear of Bills dad being very ill, I lost my father two years ago, so I hope Bills dad recovers.
I think I understand your point of view, although I dont think I have ever tried to take your USA market away from you,as that does not interest me, your too far away!! LOL. Also I have never slated or critised HI products, I am not sure where this idea has come from.
I originaly came onto this forum because there was a link on the net with TORATORATORA??? who are they. There looked to be some critical comments, so I thought I ought to try and correct that. I have enjoyed reading peoples views, and where possible putting in info that might help their overall knowledge, its a good forum to talk about kukri, keep it going but dont become introverted.
I am replying to one or two things however;
1/ Kukri 4032, you obviously dont like me, fair enough, however nearly all my Gurkha friends prefer Sirupate kukri and you only have to look on your own web site and you will find a member of the Gurkha display team in Oman before the Afghan War, cleaning his Sirupate. But they all like the original M43 model and Horn handled 12.5" WWII issue, which if was still isued today they would use.
2/ Hello Thomas, the Maharaja kukri you got from me is now a dicontinued line, as I have obtained two originals. Our next lot will be much nearer the mark using the originals spec which actualy have two diiferent blade shapes and the originals are a lot more basic than the one you bought off me. Also they did not always come with a side release scabbard.
On the WWII kukri you bought that is now discontinued as well. Ebay is a good way for us to auction discontinued lines. We are always trying to progress our products and as a result our range is constantly changing in an effort to get it as per original spec. This is not always succesfull, even in our latest shipment some kukri came through far too thin, so we are having to sell them as trainining kukri for kata or as a display piece... thats dealing with Nepal for you when you are not there to supervise! We will keep working at it to promote the Kukri and the Gurkhas. Hope that you do like them though, as they are good kukri in their own right.
3/ Spiral, thanks, you know my feeling on the subject, keep in touch.
4/ I will be doing a kukri/martial art forum on our new sight, and you will all be welcome to say what you feel on that sight, so long as it is polite, I believe in that by discussing kukri and getting everyones point of view, everybodies kukri knowledge can only develope.
And Tal... I am the real deal, you dont get to teach The Royal Marine Commandos, The Gorkha Commandos and the Nepalese in Nepal about the combat use of the kukri unless you know your stuff. For those that live in England I am doing a seminar in Southampton on the use of kukri on the 13th dec and have three seminars lined up for next year, keep in touch.
Also in the UK I supply the major retailers as well as other outlets, and that wont damage you HI, i am sure with such a loyal following you will be very succesfull, and as you are promoting kukri and as a side benfit, the Gurkhas, I am pleased to have you around.
Remember feel free to use our forum for your views when it is up and running in apprx 3 weeks (www.toratoratora.co.uk)and KEEP CHOPPING, TORA!!!
P.s If anyone does want any info on the kukri and the Gurkha's in the meantime, feel free to email me at simon@toratoratora.co.uk as i'm no longer welcome here!!
 
Roadrunner, No problem, I never thought you wished to silence diversity, I also quite understand not allowing competition within the forum, Apparently Tora is now going to start his own forum.

I respect any man who stands up for his views, Thanks for taking the time to state your case.

I have always found you an interesting participant in these forums.

Best wishes,
Spiral
 
Rusty, I absolutely respect your decision.

But...

From my perspective, I found the posts by Sirupate respectful and informative. He seems proud of his experience and products, but I don't think there's anything wrong with this. I took some of his statements more as differences of opinion than self-promotion. We're all a little wary of knife makers/sellers who rely more on BS than anything else to move their products. Certainly the burden of proof rests with Sirupate if he wishes his khuks to be mentioned in the same breath with HI products. But personally, I'll be interested to see what Tora comes up with.

And I don't believe he was trying to take advantage of Uncle Bill's current situation. It was Brendan's original query that started this thread. And though this is the HI forum, it's also pretty much Khuk Central for the Internet.

If Lynn Thompson can afford to be gracious to Bugei Swords in his latest Special Projects catalog, I can certainly give the benefit of the doubt to Sirupate's intentions. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't be the first time, anyway.

On a totally unrelated topic, I just received my Bura 18" Sirupati which was sold as a blem because of a tiny (TINY) defect in the scabbard. With it, I was able to handily dispatch your mortal enemy and mine, the dreaded USPS triangular packing box. Beautiful knife. Thanks, Yangdu.
:D
 
Roadrunner et all.
I forgot to put in my last post ,I think it fine fore you all to state your views regarding Sirupate, {after all it is a forum}., I just think it was an over reaction to give him an unofficial ban {which was not your doing}as he has not broken blade forums rules.

I would imagine a few people will regard his product all the more seriously as a HI competiter because of the way he was "run out of town." as that rather reminds me of what happens if I go into some backcountry pubs, & the local in breeds start coming out with, "Hu are u?" "your not from round these parts" I have also incounterd a similar reaction in some black ghetos.

In my opinion its called fear of the unkwown.& to this Englishman it seems very unamerican.

Spiral
 
Hi all

These are my very personal comments and these comments don’t represent anybody else other than myself ...
... Gurkhas often prefer the Eastern type of design (Sirupate), because most kami in Nepal cant do 1/4" stock well ...

... it requires more skill to forge the metal to 1/4". The Kami in Nepal do not have very sophisticated equipment and to ensure good lines on that stock requries more time and a better eye ...

... Most kami are only caple of making tourist kukri, which are of rubbish standard. It has been very frustrating finding good kami ...

... I dont like to disapoint you, but kami in Nepal are not dedicated to making kukri, it is a job and it is a job that is pretty much dictated to by their caste system. It is not a chosen career move like a Japanese Swordsmith which is a highly respected profession in Japan. Kami are of the lowest caste and that in itself brings a different view point to how higher castes in Nepal look at them and their profession ...

... I know Nepal and its people very well, and the vaste majority of kami do just churn out kukri. On the other hand if you go to the better kami and offer them more money to produce a beeter quality kukri that is what will happen, however there are not that many kami who can do that ...

... You must remeber that Nepal is very much a third world country and that the average wage is only £180.00 a year ($288.00), so you are generally not going to get dedicated kami in the same way as you would get a dedicated Japanese Swordsmith!! ...
Click to expand...
Badmouthing all those kamis in Nepal is a bit too much for me! I guess anybody who speaks such ill words to all those Kamis in Nepal is actually doesn’t really knows who those Kamis are! I have few Khukuris … 18” Tin Chirra, 20” Sirupati, 18” Malla and 18” Gelbu Special … all with spine thickness about ¼” and weighted about 1 ¼ lbs! I have one 25” Sirupati with spine thickness about ¼” and weighted about 1 ½ lbs! Kamis in Nepal may come from low caste among them but still they are very much human beings like us! They are not machine! They have soul! They have feeling! They knows love! They have pride! I believe they make Khuks by infusing their spirits ... their feelings ... their loves ... their prides ... into each and every khuks ... especially when they know that those Khuks are especially made for peoples who dear to them ... care about them ... people like Bill and Yangdu! Every time I made a special order ... I knew that my name was make known to those Kamis ... they knew that Mohd is a small built person ... they knew that Mohd needs lighweight khuks... and I always got the lighweight version of Khuks! I believe names like Rusty, Howard, Berk, Yvsa and many others are names of people who are always treated as friends rather than customers by those Kamis!

... our kukri are based on the military design which is generally quarter inch stock. This is for me, better than the current Nepali thick stock, which is only done by most kami in Nepal because it easier for them to make it that way. However from a military point of view the Nepali stock is no good as it makes the blade to heavy ...

... Our Company tends to specialise in Historical Military replicasof which we have a new range comming through ...
Click to expand...
It is good that somebody makes Khuks strictly based on standard specs of military design! As for me ... I am more interested in the model design ... specs wise I prefer my own! I need few lightweight Khuks as well as few of middleweights and few of heavyweights! Furthemore I prefer very much to know the Kamis who made those Khuks for me! I love it that way!

... A lot of what I say is based on 36 years experience, I had my first kukri when I was nine, which my mum bought me, that makes me 45 by the way!! ...

... My knowledge on kukri is just through years of studing the Gurkhas and being very privilaged to have many friends in the Gurkhas ...

... The short tang is definately not as good as the small or riveted tang, however the local kami still make them that way in Nepal and seem happy enough ...
Click to expand...
Of course ... somebody who study few gorillas in a zoo will always have different insight about gorillas compare to the insight of late Dr Dian Fossey who lived with groups of gorillas in a jungle herself!
 
I have been privilaged to meet and be around Gurkhas myself. I have been a loyal HI customer and I have a few Khukuris myself. Id suggest to quit bashing our British mate here. I cant see where he meant any disrespect. He offers some unique versions of Khukuris and he has targeted the UK market. I dont know this person (sirupate) but I am sickend at the way some of you have reacted. You are tilting at windmills...Cheers everyone Pipey
 
Rusty has done the right thing, and he has done it in a stand up and gentleman like manner.
At this point, I am uncomfortable allowing you to continue posts on the HI Forum. Until Uncle Bill returns, and is able to make decisions without having family and health matters interfering , I'm going to ask that you post your email, ( and website when it gets up )and then post elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Fair competition is good, it makes us strive to excell ~ I don't believe this is the issue. It is one thing to set up shop down the street from the competition; quite another to promote one's goods in the competition's showroom. At least two people have opined that the targeted market is the UK; via the internet this market (as evidenced by this forum and its members) is in all actuality global.

When Uncle is feeling up to snuff I'm sure he will address this himself. Perhaps his response will be 180 degrees out from Rusty's, perhaps not. Erring on the side of caution, in a polite manner, hurts no one. Rusty has asked Sirupate to post his email address and web address so that forumites that are interested in his products can easily contact him. Pretty gracious I think. I truly wish him luck with his products, and will probably buy some myself.

Spiraltwista, I'm not sure that I follow you.
For myself I think a diversity of views & opinions actualy enrich the forum. Although I can see how a English newbie speaking with apparent authority can upset the proverbial applecart in such a cosy enviroment.
Click to expand...
This sounds as if you feel that we are a bunch of Anglophobes. I don't think this is the case:(
 
Stevomillars selected quote:
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For myself I think a diversity of views & opinions actualy enrich the forum. Although I can see how a English newbie speaking with apparent authority can upset the proverbial applecart in such a cosy enviroment.
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This sounds as if you feel that we are a bunch of Anglophobes. I don't think this is the case.
.....................................................................

Steve I dont think you are a bunch of Anglophobes,I think you are all individuals.{some of you are Francophiles but thats a different part of the eqation!}

But in such a cosy freindly dare I say family type enviroment, The masked stranger Sirupate {who is English} rode into town & Spoke with apparent authority on a subject, where many forumites have strong opinions. He stated his ideas, & where he got them from. I dont know if he was right or wrong in his opinions, After all we have all been told storys by old soldiers I am sure.But there was no evidence I have yet seen to say he was wrong.

I am sure Hi kukris stand on thier on 2 feet & worth & as they have so many disciples that to me says they must be good! Thats why I bought a Foxys folly last week.

Sirupate is not the first person to tout for competitors goods on this forum, Several of your regulars have also done so. But I guess Rebelion in the ranks is accepted, But for a stranger to do so it appears not.

I think Sirupate just got up some people noses & was then asked to leave in a "corteous up till now manner" {that you choose to miss in your quotes} That is an implied threat in my book.

Well if you wish to have a forum where the only speakers who are allowed to air there own views a those you find socialy acceptable then that is your choice.

If Sirupate bieng a competitor is the issue, why say post your web details?

Im my opinion he was driven out because he was a stranger who spoke with apparent authority.

If he had turned up asking questians & requesting your views, instead of giving his answears & views, I am sure he would have recieved a much warmer welcome.

Maybe I am right , Maybe I am wrong but thats my gut instinct.

It will be interesting to see in what manner Sirupate runs the forum he intends to set up. I hope people will be able to freely express thier views about both Tora & HI kukris ther without getting sent out of the room.

I belive in free speech.

Spiral
 
I think that there is a big difference between say person X that buys a Khurk from another company and gives the report on it here and someone who runs a company and comes in and talks about his products. I have a Gurkha Khukuri that I am going to do a report on soon. Not to try and sell one just so everyone knows what to expect if they buy one. It is a tough line I guess. I hope that no ones feeling where hurt in any of this. These are just my thoughts on the matter. Thanks.
 
I didn't really think he was pimping his stuff to much, more just responding to stuff people were saying to him. I thought he showed a lot of class in the way that he was fielding some of the somewhat hostile questions to him. Sounds like he has a lot of the love/hate relationship with the kamis that Uncle Bill talks about.
 
I think that a lot of people are feeling protective of Uncle Bill and HI in general at the moment. I know I am.
 
Thanks for your views guys,

I can see your point Ardvark, I too would defend Bill because of the way I have seen him run the forum & deal with people.

I just disagreed with the unofficial Ban. & wondered on the motive for it, But I can see your point.

I am sure time will reveal all.

Cheers,
Spiral.
 
Most folks have now had time to comment. I wanted to let them do that.

Someone used the word "protective" regarding Uncle Bill. That pretty much defines it for me too.

In an honorable world, if you agree to watch something for someone else, you apply higher standards to your care of what's been entrusted to you, than you do your own business. There, if you cut corners and something happens you pay for it yourself. I can live with that.

I've investigated over 500 child abuse, neglect and exploitation cases. In that time I became sensitive to my "gut" feelings. In this case, my gut was telling me it didn't know. It was my call not to take even minor chances with the forum given the situation with Pala, Yangdu, and Uncle Bill as it remains.

Sirupate acted in gentlemanly and decent manner as you've seen. I hope that when all is said and done, I can apologize to him for over-reacting. But that time is not now.

2-3 years ago Bill allowed a person who was in direct competion to continue to post without cutting him off at the knees, even though he had ample cause. He also gained an ulcer out of the experience.

Bill is at the same time both fairminded and tolerant ( perhaps to his own detriment at times ), even saintly; and at the same time a salty mouthed sailor. ( It's been interesting and even laughable at times watching him try to balance both sides of his personality. )

I believe Bill would have gone an extra distance with Sirupate. But he is not here to do that. His job is to take care of himself right now. So I made a decision for now that he can address when his health is normalized. Til then, the decision stands til he's back on his feet.

Again, I hope my decision will be regarded as meant to protect the HI forum, and an overesponse to what will turn out to have been a false alarm.
 
Yep Rusty You probably have over blown it! I love Uncle Bill and I will continue to do business with him regardless of what I read on the forum from competition.Sirupate was interesting but he cast no spell on me to make me quit loving HI. I feel most all other forumites are of like mind. I live in a world where my gut instinct has on one occasion saved my but so I cant disagree with you on that one.

Lets remember the true khukuri experts are the Gurkhas no matter how many blade styles you all want to name after yourselves. I know this is a big disappointment to those of you that think you are going to get the next HI special named after yourself.

There are quite a few other sources for khukuris out there.
As a matter of fact when I was in Edinburgh recently and spoke with some Gurkha pipers-they had never heard of HI. They now visit the web site because they find it interesting...But their khukuris are not and wont be HI items.

I have been disappointed in you all on this and I expect more courtesy to visitors in the future.
AYO GURKHALI!!!
 
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