Using the Tibetan sword

Two thoughts come to mind.

1- Argument from authority. Within a particular tradition, the argument from an accepted authority is often very powerful. For instance, on a issue of Catholic dogma, an official pronouncement from a pope might carry great weight in a discussion between Catholics. This form of argument loses much of its effectiveness if one of the debaters does not acknowledge the authoritative nature of the authority being used to bolster an argument.

2- How does modern neuroscience tie into this discussion? Understanding of the brain has come a long way in recent years and I have not kept up with it. However, there is evidence of a rational layer on the surface of the brain (the cortex) overlying more primitive layers. Many of the primitive levels are instrumental in decision making and action including physical movement, even in cases where we interpret our actions based on a conscious rationalization. I have had a couple of experiences where real-life danger caused a shift in consciousness in which learned technique became irrelevant. This was obviously associated with a physiological adrenalin dump. The subjective experience was – time slowed down, emotions like anger or fear were not present, energy patterns were experienced where people and their movements were like whirlpools and rocks in a river, people were depersonalized and it was just the situation to be dealt with. In each case in this state my actions were not techniques which I had studied, but they were none-the-less highly appropriate to the situation. In each case after the critical period was over the physiological results of the adrenalin dump were quite evident. I can vividly remember the onset of awareness of pounding heartbeat, heightened sensory awareness, etc. as the immediate situation resolved itself.
 
I don't want to be considered an authority or as a "spokesman" for such. I just want to share something that was a profound miracle (to me) that I witnessed and was helped to understand.

Interesting description, Howard. Care to tell the whole story? I'm very curious now.
 
Good videos are hard to find. What you want to look at is footage of Hatsumi Sensei, and ONLY Hatsumi Sensei, from 1995-ish till now. The other hard part is YOU. If you look for techniques, then you will not be able to see the formlessness I am talking about. Many people don't like formlessness; they study martial arts precisely because they WANT form. I could show you in person (maybe, I'm kinda rusty) if you lived down my way.

Start the video at 3:27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csMCFHyKW5g&feature=related

Come to think of it, some of the cantina guys saw me do this stuff in California a few years back...

Yes, Aardvark and TedWCA and I had the pleasure of seeing Danny show some of his MA techniques in Santa Cruz exactly 3 years ago in February 2008 IIRC. What was so impressive was the economy of motion Danny showed. At times he just walked gently into his opponent and because of the way he positioned himself and his bokken the other fellow had no choice but to yield or have his position become unstable or fall down. I can only imagine the result if he had been moving with force or at full speed. I took Kenpo for several years as a teenager and this was much more controlled and elegant.

Danny was there to show us shuriken throwing and that was a lot of fun. I still have 3 or 4 spikes I made and oil quenched and practice the unique throwing style from time to time. It's almost a controlled hard push rather than a throw.

Norm
 
Norm you are too nice to a fool such as me, but then, that's what I have come to expect from the Cantina. John also explained his thoughts to me in a very polite way and I do see his point.
I will try to explain how to get where I think people should be:
Every school has techniques. A technique is a snapshot of somebody's last moments on Earth. It is the past. We don't train for the purpose of recreating the past. We train in order to survive the collisions of the future. I say collision because that is what violence is. You have to imagine your opponent (and it may very well be an oncoming car) as unmovable, huge and powerful. (even if it is a child) What you need to do is to learn how to move around that object in such a way that the object destroys itself.

A technique is an example of how somebody did that in the past.

We don't expect that exact same thing to happen in the future, the purpose of studying waza is to catch the feeling of the person who survived in the past. Each waza gives you a little glimpse of that feeling. Study enough of them with that mindset and you will become filled with it and suddenly, everything you do will be with that feeling. So study techniques, but try to think about what it can teach you that is not written down. What is "in between the lines" of the technique? That stuff is what will be of use in the future.

If my previous posts offended anyone, I apologize.
 
I've been in a similar situation as Howard, in reference to the effects he felt, including when the realization hit, as to what had occurred.
There were no "techniques" ( ie I'm going to do this because my oppent did XYZ") there was just me doing what came as a "response" to their actions and non-actions.

Danny if I am out in left field tell me , but I'm going to try and describe what you are saying in an image I can figure out.
The "opponent" is a rock.
"You" are water.
The situation is a pot.( meaning it is contained in space and time)
The rock is heavy and immovable but as the water flows around it, it is eroded away. If the water changes to ice, stays liquid, or goes into steam is irrelevant because it is still water and it erodes away the rock.
The only way for the rock to survive is to remove itself from the pot and/or the water.
"Water doesn't say now I'll be ice, now I'll be steam, etc it just changes as necessary to the shifting of the "pot".
Am I on the right track with this?
 
Yeah that sounds right. (it confused me a little - maybe I needed that)
The only change I would suggest is that, because the rock is moving violently and you are flowing out of his way, he smashes himself against other rocks. But basically, you are spot on. You might also call it "assisted suicide."

Now imagine you are water with a Tibetan sword...
 
Danny,

You're lucky that my little brain could come up with the rock/water theory so I could understand.
Please don't confuse me by throwing a sword in there too. :)
For someone who is not "into" martial arts I'm suprised I even grasp this stuff.
I like reading about this since I find that it makes me think of past encounters and how they went and why I may have survived.
 
...I just want to share something that was a profound miracle (to me) that I witnessed and was helped to understand.

Interesting description, Howard. Care to tell the whole story? I'm very curious now.

Danny, My aikido sensei used to say that the dojo practice was like sharpening a sword.

Adrenaline can be a key to unlocking this state, but not the only key. As the situation becomes less of a surprise or more routine, other keys must be found. I guess this is a valid sense in which practice of technique could be a detriment. If the situation becomes a routine then the habitual responses may be all that are available, unless some other key has been found to unlock the other potentials of the situation.
 
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I don't oppose the practice of techniques. I only oppose the learning of techniques. I oppose the acquisition of techniques.
 
I don't oppose the practice of techniques. I only oppose the learning of techniques. I oppose the acquisition of techniques.

Just when I think I understand, you throw me a curve ball.
Can you expand on this so I may have a better understanding of what you mean.
I don't quite get the acquisition and learning statements as you have it written.Why are you opposed?
I'm sorry Danny if I'm a little thick at times:confused:
 
Joe, I'm trying to say that we don't want to learn a fixed form and then keep that fixed form in mind all day and then, if something bad happens, look for an opportunity to apply that fixed form.
 
Suzuki Roshi wrote a famous essay titled "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" that touches on some of the ideas in this thread from a different direction. One of his statements in that essay is:

"In a beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in an expert's mind few."

Suziki Roshi was speaking in a very broad context, and the exploration here is of a concrete instance of the use of a sword. I did a google search and found this video clip of someone reading some of the key elements of Suzuki Roshi's essay.

Martial arts injuries to instructors often occurr when playing with beginners. The standard saw is "you don't have control of your technique," but there is a little more to it than that. No one, sometimes not even the beginner, is really sure what the beginner is going to do.

It's funny to hear these ideas coming out of Japanese traditions, which even for skills like flower arrangement are often highly regimented and require students to go through different highly defined levels filled with various techniques. There is a bit of an apparent paradox, but I don't think it is really a paradox. It's just that a student can easily lose sight of the forest for the trees, sometimes for many years, and sometimes can use a bit of assistance to shift perspective back to the larger context and all of its potentials.
 
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It's also useful to consider the fact that budo is taught differently outside of Japan. For most teachers, techniques are all they have to offer, so they tell their students that technical mastery is the goal. (it is not)
Sleeping through the night without dying is the goal.
Not drifting into oncoming traffic is the goal.
I'll give you a quote from Sensei that lots of budo people find disappointing but that makes me very happy: "We're not trying to win here; we just don't want to lose. You guys need to lower your standards."
 
For someone who is not "into" martial arts I'm suprised I even grasp this stuff.

You have a much better chance then many who are because you don't have any firmly entrenched, preconceived notions about the subject matter.


Howard Wallace said:
Danny, My aikido sensei used to say that the dojo practice was like sharpening a sword.

I would agree in that the study of budo requires us to remove those parts of ourselves which are unnecessary. (desire, pride, the need for form)

(** Japanese swords are not really sharpened, they are polished until the edge becomes sharp, which means removing a whole outer layer of steel from the sword)
 
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Joe, I'm trying to say that we don't want to learn a fixed form and then keep that fixed form in mind all day and then, if something bad happens, look for an opportunity to apply that fixed form.


That was my basic objection to Kenpo, but I was too young at the time to identify the problem. Each belt was a long series of memorized katas, really choreographed in nature. As long as your opponent was kind enough to react exactly the way you rehearsed, you were fine. :rolleyes: I got several belts in this manner. One class a week was "freestyle" and you were supposed to somehow transform the memorized choreography of the kata into a free wheeling response to your opponent. Consequently we saw a great many injuries in freestyle class because you were supposed to run everything at half-speed and pull your punches, but everyone was operating on rote learning.

The only good thing about the memorization aspect is that you learned to be consistent with your punches and kicks, and to learn what to do in certain situations (for instance fighting on the ground as opposed to standing up), but for the most part I found the rote routine memorization provided little real world utility.

I went to one of the early Tracy schools in San Jose, CA, way back before the school was called a "dojo" and the instructor was called a "sensei". The mats were heavy canvas on top of a lightly padded floor, and our kick and punchboards were lightly padded canvas covered plywood mounted on a truck tire on the wall. (I still have the scars on my knuckles. :))

Tracy was a severe gun nut and my Dad was a huge collector so traded guns for lessons. (Back in the good old days when you had the freedom to do that kind of stuff!)

Norm
 
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Joe, I'm trying to say that we don't want to learn a fixed form and then keep that fixed form in mind all day and then, if something bad happens, look for an opportunity to apply that fixed form.
Now I get what you're saying. I kinda thought that was the point but wanted to make sure.
I have seen this in a real life high stress situation. Not being able to "flow" because the technique didn't go as planned screws up people in a big way.
 
You have a much better chance then many who are because you don't have any firmly entrenched, preconceived notions about the subject matter.

I try to learn from as many people as I can, and that's why I enjoy your discussions.
The only preconceived notion I have is that I should constantly learn.
 
It's also useful to consider the fact that budo is taught differently outside of Japan. For most teachers, techniques are all they have to offer, so they tell their students that technical mastery is the goal. (it is not)
Sleeping through the night without dying is the goal.
Not drifting into oncoming traffic is the goal.
I'll give you a quote from Sensei that lots of budo people find disappointing but that makes me very happy: "We're not trying to win here; we just don't want to lose. You guys need to lower your standards."

Your Sensei quote is something that I will have to mull over more.
Too many people get caught up in trying to win.
" we just don't want to lose" is an entirely different approach, and opens up so many more options to explore.
One thing I have noticed over the years, is that pearls of wisdom such as your Sensei quote, are not just useful for martial arts, but can be used to solve multiple problems.
 
I think Danny and I actually do agree~ it's just easy to get lost in the verbiage. I believe in practicing kata as a means of teaching your body how to move. Learning correct body movement is the goal, not just "acquiring technique(s)". I don't expect during an emergency to ever use any exact kata I've learned.

I recall, when I had only been training a few months, I was talking about the training with a work friend. We talked about responses to a few different attacks, and then he said, "What do you do if..." and grabbed and moved me in a way I hadn't been taught yet to respond. I did what seemed natural, which worked fine. I saw that exact attack and counter demonstrated a couple of months later. :)
 
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