Vg 10 bad edge retention?

I own 3 VG-10 knives :
A serrated Harpy
A Plain edge Endura
A Plain edge Delica.
From my experience , every knife steel has a certain " strength" or favourable characteristic. VG-10's strength is it's ease of sharpening. A novice could get it sharp in a matter of minutes. And It gets REALLY sharp. But the trade off is that it Loses the sharpness Fairly quickly. From my experience , VG-10 has similar edge retention to 154cm. Now , that's not bad by any means. When it came Out , VG-10 was a HUGE improvement over ATS-55. It had better edge retention. But now , if you compare it with steels like S30V , S35VN or ZDP-189 , then you will be disappointed. If you want better edge retention , get a Native 5 in S35VN
 
I recall reading an article stating that VG-10 creates quite a "wire edge" when sharpening. I think a strop might solve your issues. The type of sharpness that I've experienced with VG-10 is a "sticky" sharp to the touch.
 
Jason B. said:
At high levels of hardness it can take and hold a fine edge easily. You will not find high levels of hardness in a folding knife like you will find in a kitchen knife.

VG-10 is know to hold on to its burr but that is only an issue at the very end of sharpening and not something that will inhibit sharpness.

I recommend not so high of a polish because we are not using straight razors. You go much past a 4000 grit waterstone or Fine Spyderco ceramic and the edge holding ability of any pocket knife or kitchen knife drops off a cliff. The edge needs some tooth to work properly and when sharpened to a very fine edge then put through tough tasks such as cardboard, rope or plastic it quickly wears down.

Just because a steel can be taken to a fine edge does not mean it will perform every task with that edge. You must balance the edge finish with the cutting tasks it will see.
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Jason knows what he is talking about. I prefer VG10 at the hardness I see in kitchen knives from Tojiro and Spyderco. It takes a sharp edge and holds it well. I don't get any chipping from my knives in VG10 and modify edge angle to fit with use.
I used to go with very high grits to sharpen my knives, but now I never go beyond a Spyderco fine stone and have my strop loaded with 1200 grit silicon carbide paste. In the past, I would strop using 1/2 micron paste, but now reserve that for woodworking plane irons.
I use Norton hard translucent Arkansas stones, black hard Arkansas or 8000 grit water stones on tool blades, not pocket or kitchen knives. I like a finer finish on my knife blades, but not like that on plane irons.
 
Vg10 is nothing special in my opinion,especially on Endura series of knives.Doesnt impress me at all and quickly gets dull.Seems like its too soft.My Spyderco Moran is different story,holds edge well ,and sharpens easily.I do not like this steel in general,period.Cold steels aus8a performs MUCH better in my opinion,easier to sharpen and holds edge better!I like endura as a knife,but do not like the steel,thats why Im using Byrd Cara CARA,AND LOVE IT. 8CR13MOV ON Byrd knives is pretty good,and will take it over vg10 anytime!ps.Mu tenacious in 8cr13mov holds edge better than endura,and is obviously on higher Rockwell scale.I know how to sharpen,so its not the burr or something similar.It is just too soft.
 
lonestar1979 said:
Vg10 is nothing special in my opinion,especially on Endura series of knives.Doesnt impress me at all and quickly gets dull.Seems like its too soft.My Spyderco Moran is different story,holds edge well ,and sharpens easily.I do not like this steel in general,period.Cold steels aus8a performs MUCH better in my opinion,easier to sharpen and holds edge better!I like endura as a knife,but do not like the steel,thats why Im using Byrd Cara CARA,AND LOVE IT. 8CR13MOV ON Byrd knives is pretty good,and will take it over vg10 anytime!ps.Mu tenacious in 8cr13mov holds edge better than endura,and is obviously on higher Rockwell scale.I know how to sharpen,so its not the burr or something similar.It is just too soft.
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Say whaaaa?!

Nah vg10 is superior to aus8 and 8cr13mov
 
Yes, my experience has been the opposite of Lonestar. Perhaps there is an issue with the HT or have a wire edge?
 
I have to say, I think VG10 is fantastic stuff. my Delica was my first experience with VG10. Now, admittedly, I use a Worksharp-KO on my knives, and it could very well be that the convex edge has enough meat in the edge that it holds a little better than a "V"?
I used it a fair amount with the factory edge before reprofiling to convex on my WS-KO and even with the factory edge it held well. But now that it's a 15DPS convex, that thing is the spiciest knife I own, and really holds the edge for much longer than I expected.
 
I have 3 G-10 Enduras. Didn't like the VG-10 blades, so I swapped them out with ZDP-189. 2 FFG and 1 Saber grind. I am much happier now.
 
19-3ben said:
I have to say, I think VG10 is fantastic stuff. my Delica was my first experience with VG10. Now, admittedly, I use a Worksharp-KO on my knives, and it could very well be that the convex edge has enough meat in the edge that it holds a little better than a "V"?
I used it a fair amount with the factory edge before reprofiling to convex on my WS-KO and even with the factory edge it held well. But now that it's a 15DPS convex, that thing is the spiciest knife I own, and really holds the edge for much longer than I expected.
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oh yes, a convex edge makes that much difference and some regular maintenance quick passes on a strop too. VG-10 is a good EDC steel, but it shines best in the kitchen in my own experience.
 
Jason B. said:
Despite me finding your post rather insulting I will answer without being rude.

Super steels can easily be defined by the process in which they are formed, PM steels = Super steels, Non PM steels = Not super steels. Before super steels you just had new steels, they might have been called super in the day but by todays standard they are just regular steel. Non PM steels such as VG-10 might have been called super or compared to a super steel like S30V but at the end of the day they are very different.

S30V was designed as a cutlery steel just like VG-10. Actually, S30V has always been compared against 440c and 154cm, this is especially true if you look at Crucible's data. It was not the answer to VG-10 but a timely opponent.

I'm also fairly sure VG-10 was originally produced for the horticultural industry. It's ability to take a very fine edge and easily brought back to a fine edge after use being the wanted attributes.
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Greetings Jason: I am a little confused here by some of the posts because I'm just trying to determine what the actual, overall complaint is here concerning VG-10 blade steel that personally I tend to like a lot :confused: Now I'm not a metallurgist nor do I have any significant expertise on abrasives like a lot of you guys here at BF have and I know you yourself and done your homework in this area. But I actually find VG-10 to be better in a lot of respects than even the highly touted S30V particularly in the areas of food prep and outdoor uses. And I tend to like VG-10 better than S30V for a lot of other reasons as well ( mainly cold weather chipping factors). Quite a few of my "hard use" Spyders are VG-10 models which for the most part I've had good overall results with over the years.

Your recommendation to the one Brother or leaving a coarse or toothy edge I completely agree with because I have highly polished VG-10 edges to find that they do tend to lose their apex just a bit quicker when they are fine honed like that. I have a Russell diamond, oval shaped, sharpening steel that is a very fine grit of diamond that I mainly use to touch up my VG-10, TEMPERANCE 1 fixed blade model with and you are right on the money because with that type of edge that diamond abrasives leaves truly does give me the ability to cut up food, meat, fish and poultry without stopping often to tune the edge up for at least two hours of continuous work.

So I guess my question is this>> Why is it that VG-10 doesn't do as good with a finely super honed edge? And I also heard quite a few years ago that VG-10 was indeed used by the Japanese steel maker who made it as primarily for "Agricultural" uses. Also would very fine diamond stones or sharpening steels be the overall best way to go with VG-10 or are there other sharpening abrasives that might work better? I'm also wondering if proper re-profiling is a factor in these complaints of VG-10 as well? And this question is also open to anyone else who can shed light on this VG-10 edge retention problem ( or perceived problem :confused:). I just know that the VG-10 has worked well for me for years now.
 
yep, wire burr. i find vg10 to be a real bear to get rid of the burr. course i hate stropping so i stick to the stones and that's a huge part of my problem with vg10 and wire burrs.
 
Centofante 3 in vg10 which I have too holds edge much better than endura and delica I have.Some other users have similar experiences, with endura and delica in vg10 being little soft compared to other Spyderco knives in vg10.Regardless,I love Spyderco:) and own about 20 of them.
 
Chris "Anagarika";15555153 said:
Jason,

Thank you. I'm going to ponder about it along with my observation.

me2,

Which VG10 did you use? It seems there're quite a variation from folder to kitchen knives.
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I thought sure I'd answered that. Sorry Chris "Anagarika". I was using a Spyderco Delica, comparing it to a mid-tech high end folder. Three tests between them cutting cardboard and all 3 had the Delica even or ahead of the 20CV. I did not do a quantitative measurement, but stopped the test when the mid-tech would not slice a plastic grocery bag. The Delica would still slice when the mid-tech wouldn't. Both had very similar geometry, with the Delica being slightly thicker behind the edge, and the mid-tech having a slightly more acute primary grind, like a degree or 2.
 
Me2,

Thanks. Interesting test.

Lonestar, it might be a soft sample. Let me repost my update from other forum:

I had problems with my first try on VG10. Couldn't get the high sharpness easily like claimed by many.
The apex either persistently burring or the sharpness achieved not as smooth as 8Cr (Tenacious or Resilience). It could be improved by stropping, but I didn't find it living up to the reputation of easily sharpened up to high level of sharpness.
With so many good feedback I gave it another try. Acquired a used Stretch in VG10 & a new E4 SG. The E4 arrived sharp and seemed to be promising.
I did the Stretch first. It was easy & I could get it to shave well. Then I took the E4. Also easy.
So from my limited samples, it's good!
Note to all, there's possibly bad sample so a steel can't be evaluated with only one sample especially if it turns not as good as the general consensus. There's more good than bad sample if one trying with reputable maker.
 
Forget about unbiased information on blade steel in here. "I've batoned through a car axle and it's still shaving sharp" "I tried to cut melted butter and my edge is chipped and rolled" Somebody is F.O.S
 
Try, like others said, making sure there's no burr. Don't go with a highly polished edge. That's for wood carving or shaving. Also you could use a steel, if you have one handy. Just strop backwards on it hard at first, then slowly soften the strokes. You see everyone steeling forward and like idiots to show off. Just do it backwards and take your time. It works.
 
I know how to sharpen,and theres no burr.Might be a sample that's softer,and delica too,maybe little better but still pretty soft.Centofante on the other hand and my Moran perform really well and hold edge well.I get endure and delica razor hair whittling sharp but they lose edge quickly,doesnt matter polished or not!Byrd cara cara on the other hand impressed me,and quality is very good,and am not afraid to really use.I had old endura in aus8, and lost it long time ago.That knife was awesome,and I liked hollow grind better than ffg.
 
JD Spydo said:
Greetings Jason: I am a little confused here by some of the posts because I'm just trying to determine what the actual, overall complaint is here concerning VG-10 blade steel that personally I tend to like a lot :confused: Now I'm not a metallurgist nor do I have any significant expertise on abrasives like a lot of you guys here at BF have and I know you yourself and done your homework in this area. But I actually find VG-10 to be better in a lot of respects than even the highly touted S30V particularly in the areas of food prep and outdoor uses. And I tend to like VG-10 better than S30V for a lot of other reasons as well ( mainly cold weather chipping factors). Quite a few of my "hard use" Spyders are VG-10 models which for the most part I've had good overall results with over the years.

Your recommendation to the one Brother or leaving a coarse or toothy edge I completely agree with because I have highly polished VG-10 edges to find that they do tend to lose their apex just a bit quicker when they are fine honed like that. I have a Russell diamond, oval shaped, sharpening steel that is a very fine grit of diamond that I mainly use to touch up my VG-10, TEMPERANCE 1 fixed blade model with and you are right on the money because with that type of edge that diamond abrasives leaves truly does give me the ability to cut up food, meat, fish and poultry without stopping often to tune the edge up for at least two hours of continuous work.

So I guess my question is this>> Why is it that VG-10 doesn't do as good with a finely super honed edge? And I also heard quite a few years ago that VG-10 was indeed used by the Japanese steel maker who made it as primarily for "Agricultural" uses. Also would very fine diamond stones or sharpening steels be the overall best way to go with VG-10 or are there other sharpening abrasives that might work better? I'm also wondering if proper re-profiling is a factor in these complaints of VG-10 as well? And this question is also open to anyone else who can shed light on this VG-10 edge retention problem ( or perceived problem :confused:). I just know that the VG-10 has worked well for me for years now.
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Couldn't agree more, I'm a big fan of VG-10, I like a good sharp blade and VG-10 will take a very sharp edge. I actually avoid knives with S30V... I think it's and awful steel from a users perspective.

VG-10 does not hold a finer edge because most production knives are not that high on the hardness scale. For fine edge holding ability the blade really needs to be at its max hardness for maximum edge stability. For sharpening I really like my Shapton stones, finish to 2000 grit and give it a little stropping.
 
rick melear said:
VG10 was developed for the masses, if you want better it's available.
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When Spyderco first introduced VG10 in the US, IIRC it was marketed as being originally developed for horticulture knives. That's not really "the masses". At the time, in Japan, the masses used AUS4 and AUS6.
 
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