W2 heat treating results

Status
Not open for further replies.
Willie71 said:
Does this steel have noticeable banding? If so, it might be the top Center of the smelt, with carbon locked up in primary carbides.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/alloy-banding-carbide-segregation.1402268/
Click to expand...

Here's a blade I recently finished up. I don't see any discernible banding like the blades in that post you reference.
lfbWAZC.jpg
 
valknut said:
I talked to Edward Braun, he said it could be temp inconsistency, too much clay, or over annealed from the mill. He suggested higher normalization cycles.
Click to expand...

So they've shifted from admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations; to admit a little, blame the customer, offer to exchange it with another random piece of steel from the grab bag of trash.

Slight improvement I guess.

How many threads before people quit rolling the dice with these guys because that last bar you had was fine?

If you sold a knife to a customer that had random soft spots in it, and when he complained, you offered to replace it with another knife with the same steel, from the same vendor, with NO IDEA if it will also have random soft spots in it, how long is he going to be a customer? How about if you just tell him he's not sharpening it right? Or if it can only cut vegetables he's using it wrong?

Hold your suppliers to the same standards your customers hold you.
 
I've used it for several years and have found good consistency and results....Think/hope it is just more of a W2 issue....having said that, all my W2 from him has been good.
 
Most tool steel suppliers have W1, O1, L6, A2, and 52100 isn’t too hard to find. I think there is still some Cru-forgeV out there. Round is easy to find but other heavy shapes work also. 5160 may also be easy to find. W2 isn’t made much any more. Other grades are available in Europe, like silver steel.

Hoss
 
I’ve been wanting to get into using W2 for some time now. But every time I plan on ordering some I see another thread started about issues with Aldo’s. After fallowing this thread for a while I think I should hold off a while longer...

Recently I attended a meet up for knife makers and collectors in the PA/NJ/NY area, hosted by Bryan Wyszkowski. Aldo was also there and I talked to him for a bit. I really wanted to bring up the issues with W2, but wasn’t too sure if I should. I’ve been kicking myself for not asking him about it. From what others have said here I don’t think I would have accomplished much by asking. It’s a shame they aren’t addressing this very well.

I get most of my steel from Aldo, I use a lot of his 1075. I really like working with it but I want to move up to something with a little more edge retention, while still being able to take a detailed hamon. Maybe I’ll give some of his 1095 a shot next time I order more steel, but 1095 never appealed to me much. I do have a few bars of his 52100 stocked up, but haven’t worked with any of it yet because I’ve been focusing on hamons.

Gotta say, it’s pretty disappointing seeing that this has been going on for a while without much improvement.
 
We have in fact sent out samples for testing for our current heat lots and our results have come back as W-2 across the board. We were just waiting on a few other samples before posting our results. Customers are always welcome to call and talk about any heat treating issues they are having or you can email more detailed questions to Ed Braun at ebraun@njsteelbaron.com, if there's anything that he can't help out with then we have metallurgists at the mill ready to lend a hand as well. We are sending a bunch of samples of various steels to some members of the community to try and nail down why some makers are getting very consistent results while others are not. We do stand by all our products and are always trying to help as much as we can. Always feel free to call or email us with any concerns or questions. 973-949-4140 or njsteel@njsteelbaron.com
 
Hi all, I was just made aware of this thread the other day and hadn't had time to respond.
I'm going to be blunt; 9 times out of 10 this comes down to user error--either from equipment issues or skipping steps.
It's pretty simple, if there is a specific issue, customers can contact NJSB or myself at Ebraun@njsteelbaron.com to run through troubleshooting.
Without knowing specifics to specific incidents, it's tough to create catchall answers for general complications--as I literally just said, it might be something as skimping on cycling temps or times, if at all, or something like a thermocouple not properly communicating with a controller, or even over or under heating quench oil.
It should also be noted at this time that when I have had complaints about W2 hardening issues the past 10 months, it's come down predominately to inaccurate temperature readings; one oven manufacturer especially of late has had products that are not accurately reading temperature in the center of the oven, anywhere from 25 to 100 degrees below target.
That said, if a maker has issues with any NJSB steel, I am available for assistance for this purpose.
 
NJ Steel Baron LLC said:
We have in fact sent out samples for testing for our current heat lots and our results have come back as W-2 across the board. We were just waiting on a few other samples before posting our results. Customers are always welcome to call and talk about any heat treating issues they are having or you can email more detailed questions to Ed Braun at ebraun@njsteelbaron.com, if there's anything that he can't help out with then we have metallurgists at the mill ready to lend a hand as well. We are sending a bunch of samples of various steels to some members of the community to try and nail down why some makers are getting very consistent results while others are not. We do stand by all our products and are always trying to help as much as we can. Always feel free to call or email us with any concerns or questions. 973-949-4140 or njsteel@njsteelbaron.com
Click to expand...

Braun_E said:
Hi all, I was just made aware of this thread the other day and hadn't had time to respond.
I'm going to be blunt; 9 times out of 10 this comes down to user error--either from equipment issues or skipping steps.
It's pretty simple, if there is a specific issue, customers can contact NJSB or myself at Ebraun@njsteelbaron.com to run through troubleshooting.
Without knowing specifics to specific incidents, it's tough to create catchall answers for general complications--as I literally just said, it might be something as skimping on cycling temps or times, if at all, or something like a thermocouple not properly communicating with a controller, or even over or under heating quench oil.
It should also be noted at this time that when I have had complaints about W2 hardening issues the past 10 months, it's come down predominately to inaccurate temperature readings; one oven manufacturer especially of late has had products that are not accurately reading temperature in the center of the oven, anywhere from 25 to 100 degrees below target.
That said, if a maker has issues with any NJSB steel, I am available for assistance for this purpose.
Click to expand...

Now this is what I call customer service.
 
Just for clarification.....

No need to etch to see the soft spots. They are clearly visible by eye after 120 grit or so. In my case, ATP-641 was used (as always), and I have a kiln that holds a very very tight and accurate temperature. I don't have a clue if the problem is due to a heavily spheroidized state or if there are/were carbon lean areas. I just don't know. And I would like to add that this problem was only on the last 2 bars of my order (I originally had 5 or 6 of the 4foot bars which had no issues). When I got to the last 2 bars, every knife I made had soft spots scattered throughout the blade (all of these knives were 2" tall 8" long chef's knives, OAL 13", and the 1/8" thick steel from the ~2015 W2 generation of bar stock I don't remember exactly..but that's close). I would get some auto hamon right at the spine, maybe 1/2"-3/4"" down from the spine. Also I'll add that these were roughly 90% ground prior to heat treat, with an edge width of 0.030"-0.040" and brand new 90°F Parks 50 quench oil. 1650F or 1700F 20 minutes air cool. 1500F 10 minutes 3x air cool. 1475F 10 minutes P50 quench. Also I had no issues whatsoever with the 52100 using basically the same heat treatment at all (canola oil or Parks 50 quenches)

You should not have to heat W2 steel to forging temps for normalizing. But with that said, it seems the guys who are forging the steel (for the most case) aren't experiencing the issue, which might speak to something about the spheroidized condition.

And about quench speed, you would think if that were the issue, the soft spots would be above the edge area, especially on a pre ground blade. Not the case in my issue. The auto hamon was noticed at the spine (no big deal to me). The majority of the blade bevel was hard. The soft spots were generally towards the edge, sometimes touching the edge, sometimes just above the edge, sometimes halfway thru the edge, and a combo of all of that. Blade is always agitated in quench, edge down first (as compared to tip), in slightly above room temp P50 oil.

And my issues were absolutely not due to "user error". As I mentioned, I didn't have any issues with the first ~ 4 bars of 1/8" stock. Only the last 2 bars. There are guys that have been doing this a long time, and are experts at this craft, that have had issues with NJSB W2 starting at about the 3rd generation, from what I can remember.

Final thing I would like to add, NJSB carbon steel, especially the 52100, has a long of history of being heavily spheroidized from the mill. If I could ask 2 things from NJSB, get the mill to amend their process of spheroidizing, and have certs for every steel sold.
 
Last edited:
00001.jpg 00002.jpg We do actually hold ourselves to a very high standard, which is why we have always been trying to improve on the product we are have produced. From skim passing for stress relief to adjusting our mills SOP for annealing our material to hopefully decrease the spheroidization a bit to make heat treating smoother. How many steel suppliers do you see replacing material and spending time walking people through proper procedure? We had a bad roll out of W-2 a few years ago and replaced every single piece that went out when we caught the issue. We refused 52,000 pounds of 1095 from a new mill because it didn't meet our standards. We frequently replace steel we don't have to because we want people to use our materials successfully. In these recent cases, it has frequently been that oven temps are off or quenchant has gone bad. People are not normalizing or thermo cycling and skipping critical steps to producing a quality product. Oven temps are off, cold spots that are not tested, oil that has gone bad or a list of other issues. We do not blame the customer, we do walk them through their process since most people are not professional heat treating services and don't realize some of the things that can throw off a quality heat treat. Every bar of steel in our place is color coded and has a heat lot attached to it. We do not grab a random piece of steel from a pile of trash. If you want to discuss it more at length, feel free to call and ask for Pete Bruno. I've attached our certified lab results for the current heat lot of W-2 as well.

kuraki said:
So they've shifted from admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations; to admit a little, blame the customer, offer to exchange it with another random piece of steel from the grab bag of trash.

Slight improvement I guess.

How many threads before people quit rolling the dice with these guys because that last bar you had was fine?

If you sold a knife to a customer that had random soft spots in it, and when he complained, you offered to replace it with another knife with the same steel, from the same vendor, with NO IDEA if it will also have random soft spots in it, how long is he going to be a customer? How about if you just tell him he's not sharpening it right? Or if it can only cut vegetables he's using it wrong?

Hold your suppliers to the same standards your customers hold you.
Click to expand...
 
And we would definitely like to hear about this so we can work to correct the issue or find the cause. We do order a lot of material and have pulled entire pallets when issues were found to be consistent. We can't know if people do not call or e-mail us. Sometimes it's a few sheets that should never have made it to us to begin with from the beginning or end of the roll. We try to visually inspect as much as possible, but sometimes there are problems we can't see and unfortunately don't come out until much later. That's across all the mills and suppliers we work with though.

samuraistuart said:
Just for clarification.....

No need to etch to see the soft spots. They are clearly visible by eye after 120 grit or so. In my case, ATP-641 was used (as always), and I have a kiln that holds a very very tight and accurate temperature. I don't have a clue if the problem is due to a heavily spheroidized state or if there are/were carbon lean areas. I just don't know. And I would like to add that this problem was only on the last 2 bars of my order (I originally had 5 or 6 of the 4foot bars which had no issues). When I got to the last 2 bars, every knife I made had soft spots scattered throughout the blade (all of these knives were 2" tall 8" long chef's knives, OAL 13", and the 1/8" thick steel from the ~2015 W2 generation of bar stock I don't remember exactly..but that's close). I would get some auto hamon right at the spine, maybe 1/2"-3/4"" down from the spine. Also I'll add that these were roughly 90% ground prior to heat treat, with an edge width of 0.030"-0.040" and brand new 90°F Parks 50 quench oil. 1650F or 1700F 20 minutes air cool. 1500F 10 minutes 3x air cool. 1475F 10 minutes P50 quench. Also I had no issues whatsoever with the 52100 using basically the same heat treatment at all (canola oil or Parks 50 quenches)

You should not have to heat W2 steel to forging temps for normalizing. But with that said, it seems the guys who are forging the steel (for the most case) aren't experiencing the issue, which might speak to something about the spheroidized condition.

And about quench speed, you would think if that were the issue, the soft spots would be above the edge area, especially on a pre ground blade. Not the case in my issue. The auto hamon was noticed at the spine (no big deal to me). The majority of the blade bevel was hard. The soft spots were generally towards the edge, sometimes touching the edge, sometimes just above the edge, sometimes halfway thru the edge, and a combo of all of that.

And my issues were absolutely not due to "user error". As I mentioned, I didn't have any issues with the first ~ 4 bars of 1/8" stock. Only the last 2 bars. There are guys that have been doing this a long time, and are experts at this craft, that have had issues with NJSB W2 starting at about the 3rd generation, from what I can remember.
Click to expand...
 
Proper procedure? You're walking people through how to manage your ever changing steel and calling it customer service.

You have no traceability, or will not provide any, which further complicates the issue as people are left to guess by which date they ordered their stock as to which version they've recieved.

Keep on keeping on, IDGAF, your steel will never be a problem for me again.
 
We are actually having the mill change their annealing procedure for our material, but our orders are always 6-18 months in advance, so it takes time. And we do track heat lots with our material so you can request certs for the majority of our material, if we pick up material from an old warehouse or something we usually get it test at AEIS before listing it.

samuraistuart said:
Just for clarification.....

No need to etch to see the soft spots. They are clearly visible by eye after 120 grit or so. In my case, ATP-641 was used (as always), and I have a kiln that holds a very very tight and accurate temperature. I don't have a clue if the problem is due to a heavily spheroidized state or if there are/were carbon lean areas. I just don't know. And I would like to add that this problem was only on the last 2 bars of my order (I originally had 5 or 6 of the 4foot bars which had no issues). When I got to the last 2 bars, every knife I made had soft spots scattered throughout the blade (all of these knives were 2" tall 8" long chef's knives, OAL 13", and the 1/8" thick steel from the ~2015 W2 generation of bar stock I don't remember exactly..but that's close). I would get some auto hamon right at the spine, maybe 1/2"-3/4"" down from the spine. Also I'll add that these were roughly 90% ground prior to heat treat, with an edge width of 0.030"-0.040" and brand new 90°F Parks 50 quench oil. 1650F or 1700F 20 minutes air cool. 1500F 10 minutes 3x air cool. 1475F 10 minutes P50 quench. Also I had no issues whatsoever with the 52100 using basically the same heat treatment at all (canola oil or Parks 50 quenches)

You should not have to heat W2 steel to forging temps for normalizing. But with that said, it seems the guys who are forging the steel (for the most case) aren't experiencing the issue, which might speak to something about the spheroidized condition.

And about quench speed, you would think if that were the issue, the soft spots would be above the edge area, especially on a pre ground blade. Not the case in my issue. The auto hamon was noticed at the spine (no big deal to me). The majority of the blade bevel was hard. The soft spots were generally towards the edge, sometimes touching the edge, sometimes just above the edge, sometimes halfway thru the edge, and a combo of all of that. Blade is always agitated in quench, edge down first (as compared to tip), in slightly above room temp P50 oil.

And my issues were absolutely not due to "user error". As I mentioned, I didn't have any issues with the first ~ 4 bars of 1/8" stock. Only the last 2 bars. There are guys that have been doing this a long time, and are experts at this craft, that have had issues with NJSB W2 starting at about the 3rd generation, from what I can remember.

Final thing I would like to add, NJSB carbon steel, especially the 52100, has a long of history of being heavily spheroidized from the mill. If I could ask 2 things from NJSB, get the mill to amend their process of spheroidizing, and have certs for every steel sold.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top