What is going on at W.R. Case and Sons
- Thread starter Rochauler1
- Start date
It's a fact that the knife industry is a cut throat business at best. That's why Schrade, Camillus, and a host of old marques are no longer with us. The cost of new tooling is high, and that's what I think killed Schrade in the end. The tooling was shot, no capability of holding any kind of tolerance, and sloppy stuff was going out the door. Some of the Schrade branded stuff I saw the last few years they were operating was horrible.
I hope Case doesn't take that route, but they need to increase their QA a bit, even if they have to charge a few dollars more. I'd pay another couple bucks for a hand inspected knife, and I'm sure you all would. Heck, how much do you pay for a GEC? Double? Almost triple in some cases? (No pun intended!)
A lot of this comes from imperfect parts to start with. The basic frame, the spacers, bolsters, and back springs are the same for a lot of models. The Texas jack and same size stockman, for example. If you have perfectly blanked and machined parts, it's a heck of lot easier to make a perfect assembly. Like Victorinox. Like Harley Davidson motorcycles. When Harley was dumped on the market after AMF bled them dry like a vampire, nothing much was left. AMF had just kept shoving bikes out the door that had been made on ancient machinery, out of spec, and failing before they were out of warrantee. In 1984 when they re-organized and they knew it was their last shot, they sent a survey team to Japan to see how it was done. They then made a huge gamble and investment in all new Japanese machining centers and laser guided cutting tools, and huge increase in QA. The result was, they actually made a better motorcycle that could compete with the more reliable Japanese and German bikes. They did what thad to be done, invest some time and money into the company, re-train employees that failure is not an option.
If people are willing to spend 100 dollars for a GEC, then maybe Case has to boost the price of a 40 dollar knife to 45 or even 50, and have the final QA inspectors on the line look over each and every one before it goes out. They need to do something, because when somebody here's about how Case used to be THE knife that their granddaddies carried, and they go out and buy one, and it comes looking like a refuge from scrap pile, you think they will ever buy another one? They'll go buy some other brand. Maybe Case needs to stop with the 85th Elvis birthday and name brand farm tractor commemoratives, and just make darn good using knives.
Maybe they need to send a survey team to Switzerland.
I hope Case doesn't take that route, but they need to increase their QA a bit, even if they have to charge a few dollars more. I'd pay another couple bucks for a hand inspected knife, and I'm sure you all would. Heck, how much do you pay for a GEC? Double? Almost triple in some cases? (No pun intended!)
A lot of this comes from imperfect parts to start with. The basic frame, the spacers, bolsters, and back springs are the same for a lot of models. The Texas jack and same size stockman, for example. If you have perfectly blanked and machined parts, it's a heck of lot easier to make a perfect assembly. Like Victorinox. Like Harley Davidson motorcycles. When Harley was dumped on the market after AMF bled them dry like a vampire, nothing much was left. AMF had just kept shoving bikes out the door that had been made on ancient machinery, out of spec, and failing before they were out of warrantee. In 1984 when they re-organized and they knew it was their last shot, they sent a survey team to Japan to see how it was done. They then made a huge gamble and investment in all new Japanese machining centers and laser guided cutting tools, and huge increase in QA. The result was, they actually made a better motorcycle that could compete with the more reliable Japanese and German bikes. They did what thad to be done, invest some time and money into the company, re-train employees that failure is not an option.
If people are willing to spend 100 dollars for a GEC, then maybe Case has to boost the price of a 40 dollar knife to 45 or even 50, and have the final QA inspectors on the line look over each and every one before it goes out. They need to do something, because when somebody here's about how Case used to be THE knife that their granddaddies carried, and they go out and buy one, and it comes looking like a refuge from scrap pile, you think they will ever buy another one? They'll go buy some other brand. Maybe Case needs to stop with the 85th Elvis birthday and name brand farm tractor commemoratives, and just make darn good using knives.
Maybe they need to send a survey team to Switzerland.
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If I buy a Case, it's going to be one that was made in the 1990s or before. These are the ones that ring my bells. The newer ones I just can't get into, generally speaking (of course, there may be exceptions).
But that's because I like a certain level of finish. For a user, who is only concerned with "does it cut? And will it last a couple years?" even modern Case knives are just fine.
But that's because I like a certain level of finish. For a user, who is only concerned with "does it cut? And will it last a couple years?" even modern Case knives are just fine.
Roc,
I love Case knives........ but they are making it hard for me to keep loving them.
I've bought 10 case knives over the last 3-4 years and have had both great knives and horrible knives.
The ones that were perfect in just about all aspects were the 032 stockman, STJ, medium Jack, baby butter bean, and a mini trapper. Great ff, great knives.
Three though were complete lemons and should have never left the shop.
Sodbusters- loose pivot. Case was great and made it right.
47 stockman and 08 half whittler were just bought the other week. 47 stock - poor dye job, metal tab or bump (not a burr...literally a tab) left on spring where it rounds the end by the bolster, Spey blade so high you could only access the last 10percent of the sheepsfoot nail nick. The half whittler - splotchy dye job and odd blue coloring on the ends of the Crimson bone.
The vendor took both the 47 and 08 back after explaining the issues.
I've also noticed some 'light' dye jobs on recent case knives too. But that's just what I've seen on some pic on the net.
I think your gonna get issues with every company. No one is perfect. But a company's image is the product I hold in my hand.
I've also bought 6 GEC knives in the last year. Two had to go back (78 strong pull....i swear it was a 9++, and a 15 that had bone damage around the back pin).
Because of the issues I've had, I'm going to be cautious with future purchases. May just start sticking with older case knives. Though a Chestnut CV SBJ is REALLY calling my name............damn this sickness.
Pcs of the half whittler. For some reason I didn't take pics of the 47.
Jim
I love Case knives........ but they are making it hard for me to keep loving them.
I've bought 10 case knives over the last 3-4 years and have had both great knives and horrible knives.
The ones that were perfect in just about all aspects were the 032 stockman, STJ, medium Jack, baby butter bean, and a mini trapper. Great ff, great knives.
Three though were complete lemons and should have never left the shop.
Sodbusters- loose pivot. Case was great and made it right.
47 stockman and 08 half whittler were just bought the other week. 47 stock - poor dye job, metal tab or bump (not a burr...literally a tab) left on spring where it rounds the end by the bolster, Spey blade so high you could only access the last 10percent of the sheepsfoot nail nick. The half whittler - splotchy dye job and odd blue coloring on the ends of the Crimson bone.
The vendor took both the 47 and 08 back after explaining the issues.
I've also noticed some 'light' dye jobs on recent case knives too. But that's just what I've seen on some pic on the net.
I think your gonna get issues with every company. No one is perfect. But a company's image is the product I hold in my hand.
I've also bought 6 GEC knives in the last year. Two had to go back (78 strong pull....i swear it was a 9++, and a 15 that had bone damage around the back pin).
Because of the issues I've had, I'm going to be cautious with future purchases. May just start sticking with older case knives. Though a Chestnut CV SBJ is REALLY calling my name............damn this sickness.
Pcs of the half whittler. For some reason I didn't take pics of the 47.
Jim
I can see why you were unhappy. I guess I've been pretty lucky. In the last 3 or 4 years I have purchased probably a dozen pocket knives from Case. Most came from one online vendor. Other than a little weak dye job on some of them, they all were almost perfect. No bent frames or severe off center blades, strong enough springs and reasonable overall finish. I do buy them to use, so my standards may be a little relaxed because I'm going to use them outdoors and appearance doesn't affect their usage. The price point is probably border line vs. quality though in my mind. If I had to pay a bit more, I'd be a little more critical on my evaluation. My most recent 2 acquisitions were a Delrin medium Jack (22087) and a Chestnut Mini Trapper. Both nice, but I believe the Delrin Jack is about as perfectly done as a knife can be. Not bad for about $34.00. I have been carrying it everyday for the last 2 months, if I don't lose it or break it, it should last me a long time. I realize Case puts out a lot of pocket knives, and most probably never see the light of day in the field. I just think that a company that has been around for as long and with general reputation for quality as they have, maybe things will tighten up in the quality control. I am sorry that I missed the "Golden Age" of Case products. I always thought I was born in the wrong decade.
black mamba
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That curved frame is wild, never seen anything like it before: a definite dud.
Funny how these things run consistently. My experience with Case is incredibly good, as in about a dozen purchased sight unseen off the net within the last 5 years and every one good, solid and without issues. Now Buck on the other hand . . . I haven't kept a single one, they seem to be cursed for me.
Funny how these things run consistently. My experience with Case is incredibly good, as in about a dozen purchased sight unseen off the net within the last 5 years and every one good, solid and without issues. Now Buck on the other hand . . . I haven't kept a single one, they seem to be cursed for me.
jc57
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I am either relatively blessed, or just not as sophisticated a knife connoisseur as some people are and I don't notice or care about small imperfections. The most frequent issue I have had with Case knives is a botched dye job. Seems they have a hard time on red for some reason, and every once in a while they will forget to darken the jigging on an amber bone scale on one side. Bone dye issues I can generally fix myself and, while I would prefer a perfect specimen, for users that are for me I don't mind touching up the dye.
I have never had any with especially noticeable off-center blades, though maybe I haven't looked. Small liner gaps here and there, sure, if I take the trouble to look for them. Occasional proud backspring when open? Yes, but rarely noticeable in use. Blade rub on stockman patterns? Yes, same as my Queen and GEC 3-blade knives. Doesn't bother me.
I guess since my traditional knife collecting started with Case and later moved into other brands, I came to accept Case's variability in final product as "normal" and so it doesn't bother me. I've got some other brands (which cost somewhat more) that have their own issues (like - trying to get a good edge on a Queen D2, or the excessively strong pulls on some GEC models). But when it comes down to daily carry, Case is more often than not what rides along with my Vic Cadet.
So sounds like luck of the draw plus whatever your expectations are for a particular price point. If Case isn't meeting your expectations, then the answer is easy - buy someone else's product. Or, modify your expectations to match the reality of their product variability.
I have never had any with especially noticeable off-center blades, though maybe I haven't looked. Small liner gaps here and there, sure, if I take the trouble to look for them. Occasional proud backspring when open? Yes, but rarely noticeable in use. Blade rub on stockman patterns? Yes, same as my Queen and GEC 3-blade knives. Doesn't bother me.
I guess since my traditional knife collecting started with Case and later moved into other brands, I came to accept Case's variability in final product as "normal" and so it doesn't bother me. I've got some other brands (which cost somewhat more) that have their own issues (like - trying to get a good edge on a Queen D2, or the excessively strong pulls on some GEC models). But when it comes down to daily carry, Case is more often than not what rides along with my Vic Cadet.
So sounds like luck of the draw plus whatever your expectations are for a particular price point. If Case isn't meeting your expectations, then the answer is easy - buy someone else's product. Or, modify your expectations to match the reality of their product variability.
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I think I have a half dozen Case knives of recent manufacture. A couple of them are on my short list for daily carry. None of them have been unsatisfactory for the price I paid. Not GEC level fit and finish, but most of them are about half the cost of a GEC.
On the other hand, I paid about $70 for a Case Sway Back Jack CV and it is at the GEC level with absolutely outstanding fit and finish.
On the other hand, I paid about $70 for a Case Sway Back Jack CV and it is at the GEC level with absolutely outstanding fit and finish.
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I have quite a few Case knives, spanning from the Case Tested days onward. There is no doubt that the knives made prior to 1980 are of superior fit and finish...for the most part. The current Case Tony Bose collaboration knives are exquisitely fit and finished...at least all I have seen. The standard run of the mill knives are hit or miss.
The knives case made up to 1980, when they still pinned on the shields, are noticeably better built than those that followed. Hold a 1970 congress next to a 1980 Congress and you can see the differences. The snap, fit, finish are all obvious. Some of my 1970s Case knives "sing" when the blade snaps open. Case made a conscious decision to cut corners starting in 1980, and it shows.
Nonetheless, I have quite a few Case knives made post 1980 that are quite outstanding in every way. You just need to inspect what you are getting. It is, however, tough for Case to compete in the space they are in. GEC, Canal Street, and Queen are all producing top end knives today, and that is what collectors want. Rough Rider and other low end makers have the low cost knife market cornered. Case is in that middle ground. It is too high priced to be considered a low cost knife for many, and not quite up to the standards that collectors expect. Perhaps someday they will try to regain the position they held in their glory days. I hope they do, otherwise I wonder if they will be able to remain in business.
The knives case made up to 1980, when they still pinned on the shields, are noticeably better built than those that followed. Hold a 1970 congress next to a 1980 Congress and you can see the differences. The snap, fit, finish are all obvious. Some of my 1970s Case knives "sing" when the blade snaps open. Case made a conscious decision to cut corners starting in 1980, and it shows.
Nonetheless, I have quite a few Case knives made post 1980 that are quite outstanding in every way. You just need to inspect what you are getting. It is, however, tough for Case to compete in the space they are in. GEC, Canal Street, and Queen are all producing top end knives today, and that is what collectors want. Rough Rider and other low end makers have the low cost knife market cornered. Case is in that middle ground. It is too high priced to be considered a low cost knife for many, and not quite up to the standards that collectors expect. Perhaps someday they will try to regain the position they held in their glory days. I hope they do, otherwise I wonder if they will be able to remain in business.
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I agree Carl. They used to be famous for their XX stamped knives, and infamous for everything that came after. They have the capability to make great knives like the Bose annuals. They give more attention to the CV and Bose regular lines. Their SS lines are an embarassment, at least most of the SS line I have seen. I believe that they should focus more on well built knives, than the "commemorative" pieces. However, if those commemorative pieces are their bread and butter, they still need to focus on increasing the quality of their using knives.
After thinking about it, embarassment is wrong. I would say that their SS line is an under utilized line, and that they can put out a better product. I liked my humpback stockmans, but it was tough to get the spey blade out on the spear point model. I like CV, but I wish most of their patterns were offered in CV. They do not need to be GEC, but they need to "up their game".
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Bent Frame. I've sent it back we'll see what the next one looks like. Sorry you may have meant Antdogs post, I'm not sure what's going on with that one.
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I guess, I'll also add: I have more Case knives than anyone else. They are one of the better values for a traditional. I would like to see their bone dye improve, more CV offerings, and consistency improve.
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I am pleased to state that even though I started this thread with a little bit of a rant, brought on by a big case
of disappointment. When reading through the posts of the last couple of days there has been a useful conversation about Case knives and their quality past and present and it has not turned into a bashing with two sides trying to shout each other down. Thank you. Carry on.
of disappointment. When reading through the posts of the last couple of days there has been a useful conversation about Case knives and their quality past and present and it has not turned into a bashing with two sides trying to shout each other down. Thank you. Carry on.
I have either been lucky with Case knives or unlucky with GEC knives but all except one Case knife that I have is nicer than any of the 3 GEC knives that I have. All of the GEC knives (only 3 including the 2014 BF knife) have edges that you could sit on without doing any damage.
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