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Who is liable when knife stolen by USPS -- dispute with user Kaw10e

Discussion in 'FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!' started by dyavorsky, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. dyavorsky

    dyavorsky Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 24, 2017
    It's true: I'm much more of a reader than a poster. Part of that is because my photography is so terrible; doesn't really do the collection justice. I'm in Los Angeles and would love if there was any in-person "porch style" get togethers down here. For me, the in-person stuff is much more fun than online posting (although I do love scrolling through everyone else's pics of their collections). And I'm still waiting for Nick Shabazz to venture North from San Diego so I can give him a proper education on slipjoints :)

    I do quite a bit of buying and selling, but if you really dig into it (and honestly it's not worth your time), you'll see that most of those transactions are me checking out knives and then re-selling them at the same (or a lower) price. Here's a good example. In LA, the only knife stores are Recon1 and Ross Cutlery. Both are great, but they don't carry everything and I don't live that close to them, so catch-and-release has become the best way for me to check things out.

    I guess this is all to say that stats on which forum you spend the most time don't tell the whole story.
    Odog27, KELAMA, JJHollowman and 5 others like this.
  2. PirateSeulb

    PirateSeulb Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 6, 2017
    I don't think you need to defend yourself @dyavorsky you at least have indicators of a strong reputation with you're feedback.
    Odog27, Pete1977 and dyavorsky like this.
  3. Airborne 1

    Airborne 1 Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 23, 2014
    You do not need to defend yourself. You seem very honest and straight forward. The seller is clearly at fault and paypal should see it the same way.
    OilMan, Pete1977 and TOMBSTONE like this.

    TOMBSTONE Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 31, 1998
    Ya, it's a dam shame it had to go PayPal claims route because the seller lacks integrity to take care of his business like a man.
  5. Triton

    Triton Gold Member Gold Member

    Aug 8, 2000

    Yikes. That guy is right off my list. When I am the seller I buy insurance to protect ME no matter what the buyer says.


    Jul 23, 2014
    The seller needs to prove it was in the envelope firstly. No insurance is as you now realise a big mistake. The empty packet thing is IMHO a basic scam for ALL items from dubious sellers. If it was in the package there must have been a weight recorded in order to apply the relevant charge for postage no? So I's imagine an empty package to begin with wouldn't record the same weight as one with a knife in it.
  7. JD Mandrell

    JD Mandrell Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 20, 2001
    Unless they bought postage online, then it will only show what weight the seller told the website, the package will only get weighed later and if it is to much over what the seller says, then postage due will be added. I just went through this with an ebay seller that had to refund me the postage due. BUT, if the package is under what the seller told the website, USPS won't care.

    But you're right, the seller needs to make this right, or at this point, be banned, since he's made it clear what will happen if a transaction goes bad on his end.
  8. Peter Hartwig

    Peter Hartwig Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 29, 2008
    The insurance is for the seller, but it is his or her choice to buy or not. Some say it is useless , while others have found it useful. In the end insured or not this would be the sellers responsibility to make right. If they don't insure it is all on them-they are self insuring(or should be). If they insure they have a chance of recovery. Whether they recover or not is not the buyers problem. USPS is pretty good at delivery and you may very well come out ahead by not insuring, but it is a gamble. You could never loose a package or you could loose the 1st one you send out.
    Likely USPS would not pay on this claim, since they show delivery
    Just as likely if this had been packaged correctly in a box , well taped, it would have arrived safely. Seller might as well have printed valuable on the envelope :).
  9. knifeswapper

    knifeswapper Knife Peddler Dealer / Materials Provider

    Sep 3, 2004
    The liability issue is set, in my mind, by using a re-sealable envelope to ship a knife. But, although the seller has not yet voiced his side of the story, I think we all can agree that there are many ways this could have played out that he could be innocent of everything except using inadequate shipping materials. And he may have a differing opinion on shipping costs / arrangements. But I would like to assume that there are two good actors here in an unfortunate situation.

    Although this may be obvious, I would submit that this should be a learning situation for both.
    1) Seller: Don't ship a knife in an envelope; unless it is a 50# crush box inside an envelope.
    2) Seller: Never use a shipping method that it is not blatantly obvious when it has been tampered with.
    3) Seller: Never concede #1/#2 unless you have written liability waiver from the buyer; and PP/CC will not accept this anyway.
    4) Seller: If you don't have extensive history with buyer; add insurance to the shipping costs. Although useless in this situation.
    5) Buyer: Insist on #1/#2 and pay a reasonable amount for such.
    6) Buyer: Never accept a package that is not right (weight, damaged, etc.).
    7) Both: Be prepared to look at this from both points of view if something goes awry.

    All carriers are very rough with parcels. They may throw an envelope 30' - and GEC knives will pop the tube caps on sudden stops with less force than you think. Then knives will tear (or possibly force open poorly sealed envelopes?) after enough jostling around.

    The seller should submit a "missing mail" form just in case the knife was found laying on a USPS floor somewhere.
    The buyer should submit a "not what I ordered" claim with pp/cc.
    The only reason I say the buyer should file the claim, even if they both may agree liability goes to the seller - is so that the seller has documentation in case the buyer shows up selling this knife somewhere down the road (not inferring this particular OP is anything less than a stand-up guy - but just generally for reference)
    AKnife, steelnut, dyavorsky and 5 others like this.
  10. braillediver

    braillediver Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 6, 2007
    Seems a lot of baseless knee jerk reactions of- USPS Stole it.

    With ALL the stuff going through the USPS- Why do you think they stole your precious knife? How did they know your precious knife was in that package? It didn't even have insurance so why would they even think........
    kreole likes this.
  11. BigKurtHaze


    Aug 2, 2015
    Are you working under the theory that the seller mailed out an empty tube?

    I personally don’t see any reason to abandon that theory.
  12. Pete1977

    Pete1977 Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 15, 2002
    Since the seller has not bothered to address this thread we may never know his side of the story except that he has the buyer’s money and the buyer is out a knife and he refuses to make it right.
    Whether he sent an empty tube, the USPS stole the knife or it was just bad luck due to poor packing, we may never know because the seller is ignoring this thread. His reputation as a seller on BFC is most likely irreparably damaged by this point and i hope paypal makes the buyer whole again.
  13. kreole


    Jul 23, 2009
    Loading and unloading a (soft) envelope with hard item inside is enough to produce a hole and have it fall out. That isn't to say no one stole it, but I'd argue that's the simpler explanation.
    woodysone likes this.
  14. benchwarmer380

    benchwarmer380 Valyrian Member Platinum Member

    Sep 17, 2012
    Sure, but the OP made no mention of a hole in the packaging. That is why the theories are leaning towards theft, whether it be a USPS employee opening, taking the item, and sealing the package (as the OP could do), or the knife not being there in the first place. We likely will never know the truth of it.
    woodysone, TOMBSTONE and kreole like this.
  15. Airborne 1

    Airborne 1 Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 23, 2014
    Well, now we know what the seller's (@Kaw10e) Rep. is worth to him. What a shame . His silence is very telling. Don't deal with him. To the ignore list he goes. The seller (@Kaw10e) should be banned before he does this again.
  16. WValtakis

    WValtakis Hand Engraving, Anodizing and Embellishment Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    May 29, 2004
    Seems like the seller already knows his reputation is toast...hasn't logged in for over a week:rolleyes:
  17. Peter Hartwig

    Peter Hartwig Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 29, 2008
    You may want to re-read post 1
    envelope seems to be completely intact with knife and tube cap missing
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  18. tyyreaun

    tyyreaun Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 26, 2017
    I've received knives from overseas, directly from well-known makers (one European, one South African) that were shipped using cloth pouches inside un-padded plastic bags... At least, in those cases, they arrived safely :/

    I supposed that's one way for the maker to prove they believe their products will stand up to abuse...
    woodysone likes this.
  19. Vaporstang

    Vaporstang Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 8, 2014
    To the ignore list for the seller based on their attitude and responses (and lack thereof).
    woodysone and TOMBSTONE like this.
  20. ArchVV

    ArchVV Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 8, 2015
    Yep, me too. I would say most customs I've received have come in poorer packaging than any given knife I have shipped for a sale. Most have been insured, however.
    woodysone and tyyreaun like this.

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