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Who is liable when knife stolen by USPS -- dispute with user Kaw10e

The op is in the same boat,but for a few posts. Buy/sell/ trade and make a complaint.

It's true: I'm much more of a reader than a poster. Part of that is because my photography is so terrible; doesn't really do the collection justice. I'm in Los Angeles and would love if there was any in-person "porch style" get togethers down here. For me, the in-person stuff is much more fun than online posting (although I do love scrolling through everyone else's pics of their collections). And I'm still waiting for Nick Shabazz to venture North from San Diego so I can give him a proper education on slipjoints :)

I do quite a bit of buying and selling, but if you really dig into it (and honestly it's not worth your time), you'll see that most of those transactions are me checking out knives and then re-selling them at the same (or a lower) price. Here's a good example. In LA, the only knife stores are Recon1 and Ross Cutlery. Both are great, but they don't carry everything and I don't live that close to them, so catch-and-release has become the best way for me to check things out.

I guess this is all to say that stats on which forum you spend the most time don't tell the whole story.
 
Seller's response:

"I understand where you’re coming from but I cannot accept responsibility for USPS. On the same note there wasn’t mention of the package being insured nor was it requested by you. Therefore I have no legal standing to get reimbursement from USPS."

I have contacted Paypal and am hoping they can help me reach a resolution.


Yikes. That guy is right off my list. When I am the seller I buy insurance to protect ME no matter what the buyer says.
 
I'm sure there's a post on this topic, but I can't find it.

The situation
I bought a GEC slipjoint knife from seller (@Kaw10e). I paid $213 Paypal G&S for a "special factory order" knife that sold out quickly (retail $149) and will not be reproduced. GECs sells their knives in a plastic tube. Seller put the tube (and presumably the knife) in a brown USPS bubble envelope and sealed the envelope using its adhesive and nothing more. Seller then mailed the envelope USPS first class with no insurance. I received the envelope with the tube, but no knife (and, for what it's worth, the cap of the tube was missing as well, but I've never had a cap just "fall off" a GEC tube). I work from home and know my mailman, and he handed me the package, so at no point did the package sit unattended at my home. The package was sealed by the adhesive when I received it. After cutting open the envelope and finding only the tube, I tried to unstick the bubble envelope's adhesive and re-stick it, which I was able to do. This leads me to believe that a likely scenario was that someone working for USPS did the same and that's how they took the knife (or, less likely, seller only mailed the tube).

The disagreement
I claim that USPS is acting as an agent for the seller and until USPS drops the package at my door (or, in this case, hands it to me), the responsibility belongs to the seller. Seller claims that he did his job by mailing the item, and will not refund me. Hence we disagree and someone is out $200 (currently, that someone is me). I have filed a complaint with Paypal; I have not contacted USPS about this.

Your thoughts
I'm looking to see what you guys can tell me about the laws, rules, or community norms for this particular situation. Or you're welcome to point me to other posts about a similar situation (I just couldn't find them).

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts.
-Dan
The seller needs to prove it was in the envelope firstly. No insurance is as you now realise a big mistake. The empty packet thing is IMHO a basic scam for ALL items from dubious sellers. If it was in the package there must have been a weight recorded in order to apply the relevant charge for postage no? So I's imagine an empty package to begin with wouldn't record the same weight as one with a knife in it.
 
The seller needs to prove it was in the envelope firstly. No insurance is as you now realise a big mistake. The empty packet thing is IMHO a basic scam for ALL items from dubious sellers. If it was in the package there must have been a weight recorded in order to apply the relevant charge for postage no? So I's imagine an empty package to begin with wouldn't record the same weight as one with a knife in it.

Unless they bought postage online, then it will only show what weight the seller told the website, the package will only get weighed later and if it is to much over what the seller says, then postage due will be added. I just went through this with an ebay seller that had to refund me the postage due. BUT, if the package is under what the seller told the website, USPS won't care.

But you're right, the seller needs to make this right, or at this point, be banned, since he's made it clear what will happen if a transaction goes bad on his end.
 
The insurance is for the seller, but it is his or her choice to buy or not. Some say it is useless , while others have found it useful. In the end insured or not this would be the sellers responsibility to make right. If they don't insure it is all on them-they are self insuring(or should be). If they insure they have a chance of recovery. Whether they recover or not is not the buyers problem. USPS is pretty good at delivery and you may very well come out ahead by not insuring, but it is a gamble. You could never loose a package or you could loose the 1st one you send out.
Likely USPS would not pay on this claim, since they show delivery
Just as likely if this had been packaged correctly in a box , well taped, it would have arrived safely. Seller might as well have printed valuable on the envelope :).
 
The liability issue is set, in my mind, by using a re-sealable envelope to ship a knife. But, although the seller has not yet voiced his side of the story, I think we all can agree that there are many ways this could have played out that he could be innocent of everything except using inadequate shipping materials. And he may have a differing opinion on shipping costs / arrangements. But I would like to assume that there are two good actors here in an unfortunate situation.

Although this may be obvious, I would submit that this should be a learning situation for both.
1) Seller: Don't ship a knife in an envelope; unless it is a 50# crush box inside an envelope.
2) Seller: Never use a shipping method that it is not blatantly obvious when it has been tampered with.
3) Seller: Never concede #1/#2 unless you have written liability waiver from the buyer; and PP/CC will not accept this anyway.
4) Seller: If you don't have extensive history with buyer; add insurance to the shipping costs. Although useless in this situation.
5) Buyer: Insist on #1/#2 and pay a reasonable amount for such.
6) Buyer: Never accept a package that is not right (weight, damaged, etc.).
7) Both: Be prepared to look at this from both points of view if something goes awry.

All carriers are very rough with parcels. They may throw an envelope 30' - and GEC knives will pop the tube caps on sudden stops with less force than you think. Then knives will tear (or possibly force open poorly sealed envelopes?) after enough jostling around.

The seller should submit a "missing mail" form just in case the knife was found laying on a USPS floor somewhere.
The buyer should submit a "not what I ordered" claim with pp/cc.
The only reason I say the buyer should file the claim, even if they both may agree liability goes to the seller - is so that the seller has documentation in case the buyer shows up selling this knife somewhere down the road (not inferring this particular OP is anything less than a stand-up guy - but just generally for reference)
 
Seems a lot of baseless knee jerk reactions of- USPS Stole it.

With ALL the stuff going through the USPS- Why do you think they stole your precious knife? How did they know your precious knife was in that package? It didn't even have insurance so why would they even think........
 
Seems a lot of baseless knee jerk reactions of- USPS Stole it.

With ALL the stuff going through the USPS- Why do you think they stole your precious knife? How did they know your precious knife was in that package? It didn't even have insurance so why would they even think........
Are you working under the theory that the seller mailed out an empty tube?

I personally don’t see any reason to abandon that theory.
 
Since the seller has not bothered to address this thread we may never know his side of the story except that he has the buyer’s money and the buyer is out a knife and he refuses to make it right.
Whether he sent an empty tube, the USPS stole the knife or it was just bad luck due to poor packing, we may never know because the seller is ignoring this thread. His reputation as a seller on BFC is most likely irreparably damaged by this point and i hope paypal makes the buyer whole again.
 
Are you working under the theory that the seller mailed out an empty tube?

I personally don’t see any reason to abandon that theory.

Loading and unloading a (soft) envelope with hard item inside is enough to produce a hole and have it fall out. That isn't to say no one stole it, but I'd argue that's the simpler explanation.
 
Loading and unloading a (soft) envelope with hard item inside is enough to produce a hole and have it fall out. That isn't to say no one stole it, but I'd argue that's the simpler explanation.

Sure, but the OP made no mention of a hole in the packaging. That is why the theories are leaning towards theft, whether it be a USPS employee opening, taking the item, and sealing the package (as the OP could do), or the knife not being there in the first place. We likely will never know the truth of it.
 
Loading and unloading a (soft) envelope with hard item inside is enough to produce a hole and have it fall out. That isn't to say no one stole it, but I'd argue that's the simpler explanation.
You may want to re-read post 1
envelope seems to be completely intact with knife and tube cap missing
 
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Maybe one way to change this is for us who buy any knife on here should refuse any packages that are not boxed and secure when delivered.

I've received knives from overseas, directly from well-known makers (one European, one South African) that were shipped using cloth pouches inside un-padded plastic bags... At least, in those cases, they arrived safely :/

I supposed that's one way for the maker to prove they believe their products will stand up to abuse...
 
I've received knives from overseas, directly from well-known makers (one European, one South African) that were shipped using cloth pouches inside un-padded plastic bags... At least, in those cases, they arrived safely :/

I supposed that's one way for the maker to prove they believe their products will stand up to abuse...

Yep, me too. I would say most customs I've received have come in poorer packaging than any given knife I have shipped for a sale. Most have been insured, however.
 
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