Who is liable when knife stolen by USPS -- dispute with user Kaw10e

[KELAMA]

The situation
Seller put the tube (and presumably the knife) in a brown USPS bubble envelope and sealed the envelope using its adhesive and nothing more. Seller then mailed the envelope USPS first class with no insurance.

^ You've got to be freaking kidding me! What could possibly go wrong.....???

FWIW: In all of my ++++ transactions I've had here, I've had only one knife go missing; & guess what it was shipped in? Surprise, a USPS plastic envelope. In my case, the USPS stamped the envelope with a red "no contents inside" stamp. It was shipped from a very reputable member here. I contacted him later that evening, & he offered to reimburse me immediately. I told him to hold off...went in & checked with my local USPS the next day...& low & behold, they found my Protech TR-4, tightly sealed up inside another plastic enveloped which was balled up & looked like a big softball.

I would like to hear @Kaw10e side but if everything you said is true, it's on the seller as far as I'm concerned.

Bubble envelope and no insurance

^ You forgot the "USPS First Class" part...any way he can make an extra buck or two...on his flip.
Anyone who would ship a knife inside an envelope, isn't very bright to begin with....so it's no surprise, that this person didn't have the decency to come here & present his side.....

REALLY? SHIP A KNIFE IN AN ENVELOPE? BE SHOCKED THAT IT GETS LOST OR STOLEN? AND HAVE NO INSURANCE ON THE PACKAGE?

Well, now we know what the seller's (@Kaw10e) Rep. is worth to him. What a shame . His silence is very telling. Don't deal with him. To the ignore list he goes. The seller (@Kaw10e) should be banned before he does this again.

^ +1

It's true: I'm much more of a reader than a poster.

I guess this is all to say that stats on which forum you spend the most time don't tell the whole story.

^ I'm more of a reader, too! I only read the 1st & last pages here...my advice to you: just ignore any of the naysayer's here- they're not worth your time. You are 100% in the right here, Dyavorsky!

Ship a knife in a brown envelope, no insurance, First Class...& no tape. Massive failure, in every regard!

 

[Pete1977]

It's true: I'm much more of a reader than a poster. Part of that is because my photography is so terrible; doesn't really do the collection justice. I'm in Los Angeles and would love if there was any in-person "porch style" get togethers down here. For me, the in-person stuff is much more fun than online posting (although I do love scrolling through everyone else's pics of their collections). And I'm still waiting for Nick Shabazz to venture North from San Diego so I can give him a proper education on slipjoints

I do quite a bit of buying and selling, but if you really dig into it (and honestly it's not worth your time), you'll see that most of those transactions are me checking out knives and then re-selling them at the same (or a lower) price. Here's a good example. In LA, the only knife stores are Recon1 and Ross Cutlery. Both are great, but they don't carry everything and I don't live that close to them, so catch-and-release has become the best way for me to check things out.

I guess this is all to say that stats on which forum you spend the most time don't tell the whole story.

I have been a member of BFC since about 2002 and only have about 2500 posts. I read much more here than I post. In the past i have bought much more than I have sold and much of my selling was done long before iTrader was instituted.

That being said, it has always been the norm at bladeforums for the seller to be responsible for getting the knife to the buyer. Until the knife is in your possession the deal is not done. The seller owes you money, his silence speaks volumes and he deserves to be banned and have his info posted to prevent him from doing this to others.

 

[TOMBSTONE]

I have been a member of BFC since about 2002 and only have about 2500 posts. I read much more here than I post. In the past i have bought much more than I have sold and much of my selling was done long before iTrader was instituted.

That being said, it has always been the norm at bladeforums for the seller to be responsible for getting the knife to the buyer. Until the knife is in your possession the deal is not done. The seller owes you money, his silence speaks volumes and he deserves to be banned and have his info posted to prevent him from doing this to others.

In the meantime thankfully we have an ignore feature

 

[uxo2]

I tape the crap out of my packages for this reason.

Just ask anyone who ever bought from me.

And a empty tube falls on the seller.

Just ask Paypal..... Refund.

 

[BD_01]

dyavorsky , any word back from PayPal?

(...or dis I miss that above?)

 

[dyavorsky]

Just this moment I was able to get resolution from PayPal in my favor. Doing so required me to put the whole story in writing, provide photos of the packaging, and to file an official claim with the USPIS (post office inspector). It also took many more calls to PayPal's dispute resolution center than I thought would be necessary -- but in the end, it worked out.

For those who want to ignore the seller, his BF name is Kaw10e and his real name is Kyle White from Florida. His PayPal lists him as Kyle's Trading Outpost. I do not feel comfortable sharing his email address or any more details about his personal address.

I want to emphasize that this was not a shady transaction and it was not direct theft from the seller (or -- if you would call it theft -- it was more like the manslaughter version of theft rather than the murder version). All of my dealings with the seller were positive until we had the unfortunate incident of theft by (most likely) a USPS employee. Yes, seller should have packaged the product more securely or purchased insurance, and it would have been nice of him to resolve the issue himself rather than making me go through PayPal to get the resolution.

As a result, I will now be leaving my first negative feedback mark on BladeForums, but I think seller has earned it.

I appreciate all of the conversation and opinions that this community has provided on this thread. It was reassuring to me as I went through the process, and I learned a few things along the way.

Thanks again,
-Dan

EDIT: adding the original thread for the sale, just because I don't think it's linked anywhere in this thread.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/gec-93-royal-blue-camel-bone.1670744/

 

[Pete1977]

It is too bad that it had to come to this and that @Kaw10e sold his reputation for a couple hundred dollars.

I am glad you got your money back, even with the hassle dyavorsky . You seem like a good honest member and I would not hesitate to do business with you.

ETA: @Kaw10e was on Bfc sunday and by now must be fully aware of this thread. His refusal to even address this issue speaks volumes.

 

[BD_01]

ETA: @Kaw10e was on Bfc sunday and by now must be fully aware of this thread. His refusal to even address this issue speaks volumes.

I’ll say the following about Kaw10e’s reputation on BFC:

 

[Peter Hartwig]

You might want to adjust the thread title slightly to include the sellers user name. That way someone checking on him before a sale will immediately realize the thread is about him.

 

[Gastonknife]

Good call on adding the name.

 

[KELAMA]

Just this moment I was able to get resolution from PayPal in my favor.

For those who want to ignore the seller, his BF name is Kaw10e and his real name is Kyle White from Florida. His PayPal lists him as Kyle's Trading Outpost. I do not feel comfortable sharing his email address or any more details about his personal address.

I want to emphasize that this was not a shady transaction and it was not direct theft from the seller (or -- if you would call it theft -- it was more like the manslaughter version of theft rather than the murder version). All of my dealings with the seller were positive until we had the unfortunate incident of theft by (most likely) a USPS employee. Yes, seller should have packaged the product more securely or purchased insurance, and it would have been nice of him to resolve the issue himself rather than making me go through PayPal to get the resolution.
As a result, I will now be leaving my first negative feedback mark on BladeForums, but I think seller has earned it.
Thanks again,
-Dan

I'm really glad, to be reading this very positive resolution update on your behalf, Dan. Your case for some reason, popped back into my mind today...& I logged in, just to check up on a possible (hopeful), update/outcome.
TGIF!

RULE #2 (right after "ALWAYS USE PAYPAL GOODS), to all member's on this forum, planning on shipping a "KNIFE:"

Under (or in) no circumstances:
EVER, use an envelope, to ship a KNIFE!!!

 

[Lone_Wolfe]

Ship a knife in a brown envelope, no insurance, First Class...& no tape. Massive failure, in every regard!

There is nothing wrong with using First Class, assuming you used a box, good packing, plenty of tape, and insurance. Shipping from here, First Class is usually just as fast, and sometimes faster than Priority.

 

[Victorian Squid]

I tape the crap out of my packages for this reason.

Just ask anyone who ever bought from me.

And a empty tube falls on the seller.

Just ask Paypal..... Refund.

Common sense. Take a small flat rate box, close it with that little sticker tab, then dance on it. Watch the edges pop open. That should give most people a clue that rely simply on the clever folding and a bit of adhesive. Terrible, horrible things happen to packages, and the smaller the package the better the chances. Tape is cheap.

I hate selling knives because the shipping part is what's scary. USPS happily takes your money for overpriced insurance, but just try getting it back. They want more proof about the value of that item than it's possible to provide. What I always make sure of is that the carrier gets a signature. I simply won't sell to anybody who says "I can't be there/get to post office if I miss it". I want to know that the person I sent it to got it, and the carrier didn't drop it at the wrong address or stuck it in the mailbox only for it to get stolen. UPS isn't much better - a friend who's a maker always sends UPS insured. He sent $30k with of knives to a reseller, and UPS dropped it at a car wash a block away! Luckily, the car wash owners knew the reseller, and he was reunited with the package. WTAF?

Still, when selling I always double insure (so not just the buyer gets payed, but so do I!) and it's always express. Doesn't matter if it's a $50 or a $1500 knife. Always send express, because tracking. First class disappears, it disappears. As much as I don't like USPS, they've never once lost a package, where UPS has done some really weird stuff with me.

Bottom line, if I sell a knife you get a tracking number (why I ask for email address) and I check to make sure that package in in the buyers hands once USPS shows it's delivered. For my protection as much as the buyer. I've made some awesome friends selling knives, and aim to keep it that way.

I'm glad the OP got out of this in one piece - sadly there's a lot of scam artists that make their way here. It's a shame he had to go through this, and I hope further adventures go smoother!

 

[Peter Hartwig]

Still, when selling I always double insure (so not just the buyer gets payed, but so do I!) and it's always express. Doesn't matter if it's a $50 or a $1500 knife. Always send express, because tracking. First class disappears, it disappears. As much as I don't like USPS, they've never once lost a package, where UPS has done some really weird stuff with me.
!

What do you mean "double insure" ?-nsure for twice as much ?
Buyer is covered by the initial payment being refunded, and insurance is to cover you. USPS is only going to cover the provable value of the knife. If you are over insuring you are just throwing away money
but maybe I misunderstood

 

[braillediver]

I've filed 1 claim with USPS- I used the PayPal Receipt as the value= What I was paid for the item.

 

[craytab]

USPS happily takes your money for overpriced insurance, but just try getting it back. They want more proof about the value of that item than it's possible to provide.

I agree with much of what you said but the above simply isn't true.

 

[Jason_W]

I have been selling online for about 14 years, and I consider the package my responsibility until it is scanned at your house. I have never had to make an insurance claim, but if one of my items was ever lost/stolen I would just refund the buyer right away and deal with the insurance myself. My reputation is more important to me than a lost item...regardless of price.

 

[Poriggity]

I just read through this entire thread. I am glad that Paypal sided in your favor. I am seriously confused as to anyone would sell their integrity and reputation for a couple hundred bucks. Hopefully you can find another version of that knife you liked, so you can have it in your collection.

 

[John_0917]

Some sellers try to claim that their part is done as soon as they drop the package off in a mailbox, USPS is responsible for the rest, etc.

PayPal will disagree, of course. There's a reason why they have an entire category (INR - Item Not Received) covering this scenario.

You'll be fine - PayPal will make you whole. And, hopefully the seller learns an important lesson in, if nothing else, investing in packing tape.

The PayPal part isn’t totally true, I had a case where I bought a watch bracelet via PayPal and all I got was a set of spring bars, seller didn’t respond to me so I filed a claim via PayPal. They denied my claim saying that it the INR was not technically true since I was shipped SOMETHING.

I ended up winning on an appeal but even that took some doing, so just know it’s not that simple in the case where you don’t get what your are supposed to.

 

[tyyreaun]

They denied my claim saying that it the INR was not technically true since I was shipped SOMETHING.

I think you need to file the case as item "significantly not as described", to win it on the first round.

Edited to add: that's probably true for any case where the tracking number shows delivery. I'm assuming the "item not received" agents just check the tracking, and that's it.