Why Bowie gets all the love and not Hudson Bay

S Sidehill Gouger I'm sorry, I can't help out. I read that several times on sites dealing with historical knives. And on knife makers' sites who specialize in historical patterns. T'was years ago. Don't remember nothing, except the blanks stuffed in casks for expedition.
 
marcinek said:
that knife would be darn handy in the kitchen!
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With a 1/4" thick blade ? No way this gets into my kitchen ! Joking, I would use it 2 or 3 times a year for fun and the historical feeling. But that's it.
 
Sure. But the pattern would just be so much nicer for my use with 1/8" stock and 10" length. That I'd buy in a heartbeat. Of course, it would no longer be a "Hudson Bay Knife".
 
Sidehill Gouger said:
Can anyone point me to a factual reference to knives being shipped to the frontier with no handles and unsharpened? I have the Museum of the Fur Trades' latest volume of their encyclopedia of the fur trade dealing with tools and utensils. There are plenty of references to finished knives being shipped in barrels but nothing about blade blanks.
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I wish I could, it was 35 plus years ago & I’ve read a few books over the years so I can’t refer you to one particular book or books! Being a maker and the amount of “Kit” knives I’ve seen over the years and a few of the Plains Indian trade type knives from the 1900s on .. I have no trouble seeing that it would make sense to ship with no handle, no edge , most likely seconds from the Brit/English & German factories .
 
Don't forget they were "trade" items (like glass pearls, hatchet heads and so on...). As inexpensive as possible. You want a maximal benefit on those furs, right ?
 
Interesting thread brought back up. Marcinek posted earlier that mountain men did not carry bowies. I don't necessarily agree with that. They carried all sorts of blades. Personal preference.

I just finished reading a book about John "Liver-Eating" Johnson, born John Jeremiah Garrison Johnston, was a mountain man of the American Old West. The book spent a surprising amount of time describing various knives and edged weapons carried by many of the famous mountain men of that era. Using first hand descriptions, and interviews, notes, journals, etc of the time.

I recently read Crow Killer. Great descriptions of the knives used.

Most carried big fighting style knives for actual fighting/killing. The book described large daggers, bowie knives, Gaucho, hawks, etc. Incuded were knives from different national origins and some pure fighting knives.

Here are some historical examples. This knife is attributed to John "liver eating" Johnson at the end of his career. Wade & Butcher, Sheffield England circa 1850. Very thick. 3/8 taper in both directions. Those who have physically inspected it believe is has undergone modification the years. It does not match detailed descriptions of his earlier Bowie with a longer blade and rose wood grip. His history involved different blades. Used, lost, captured, and taken from fellow deceased mountain men.

9JE50D7.jpg


This is alleged to be one of the later knives Liver eating Johnson carried. Those who have examined it, have opined that it may at one point have had a guard.

ptNRLtn.jpg


His description from earlier in his book, and several collateral sources described an even longer blade.
Knife in lower left corner.
B4hXMIu.jpg


CmSw3gW.jpg



The earlier pictured knife seems to more closely match his description with a longer blade, and wood grips. Interesting also, that the earlier pictured knife appears to have an enlarged near Hudson bay profile (modified, but has a hump on the spine, and a curve to the edge).



I try not to get too hung up on labels for knives. I've had big bowies that I classified as more of camp knives and choppers, and vice versa.

I have only one "Hudson bay" pattern by Condor.

JqzA0G7.jpg
 
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Due to thickness alone, I'd say this was not a pure fighter or hunter knife. Was probably used for processing firewood, too. Gives a background to the Hudson Bay concept. Thanks for the information Bigfattyt Bigfattyt
 
herisson said:
Due to thickness alone, I'd say this was not a pure fighter or hunter knife. Was probably used for processing firewood, too. Gives a background to the Hudson Bay concept. Thanks for the information Bigfattyt Bigfattyt
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Even very thick knives can be wicked fighters with radical distal taper.

Those who had handled this knife said it was tapered in the blade and handle.

Here is a fighting bowie with a nearly the same thickness (.35) with radical distal taper.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...oject-updated-cutting-forging-videos.1142021/
 
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Bigfattyt said:
Interesting thread brought back up. Marcinek posted earlier that mountain men did not carry bowies. I don't necessarily agree with that. They carried all sorts of blades. Personal preference.

I just finished reading a book about John "Liver-Eating" Johnson, born John Jeremiah Garrison Johnston, was a mountain man of the American Old West. The book spent a surprising amount of time describing various knives and edged weapons carried by many of the famous mountain men of that era. Using first hand descriptions, and interviews, notes, journals, etc of the time.

I recently read Crow Killer. Great descriptions of the knives used.

Most carried big fighting style knives for actual fighting/killing. The book described large daggers, bowie knives, Gaucho, hawks, etc. Incuded were knives from different national origins and some pure fighting knives.

Here are some historical examples. This knife is attributed to John "liver eating" Johnson at the end of his career. Wade & Butcher, Sheffield England circa 1850. Very thick. 3/8 taper in both directions. Those who have physically inspected it believe is has undergone modification the years. It does not match detailed descriptions of his earlier Bowie with a longer blade and rose wood grip. His history involved different blades. Used, lost, captured, and taken from fellow deceased mountain men.

9JE50D7.jpg


This is alleged to be one of the later knives Liver eating Johnson carried. Those who have examined it, have opined that it may at one point have had a guard.

ptNRLtn.jpg


His description from earlier in his book, and several collateral sources described an even longer blade.
Knife in lower left corner.
B4hXMIu.jpg


CmSw3gW.jpg



The earlier pictured knife seems to more closely match his description with a longer blade, and wood grips. Interesting also, that the earlier pictured knife appears to have an enlarged near Hudson bay profile (modified, but has a hump on the spine, and a curve to the edge).



I try not to get too hung up on labels for knives. I've had big bowies that I classified as more of camp knives and choppers, and vice versa.

I have only one "Hudson bay" pattern by Condor.

JqzA0G7.jpg
Click to expand...


Is there a new book on Johnson out there? One thing about the "mountain men" like Johnson carrying bowies is that they were almost always post classic beaver trade days. By the way, I consider the novel Crow Killer on the same historical accuracy level as the "Iron Mistress."
 
Are there any knife companies (besides Condor) out there who are still making a faithful interpretation of Hudson Bay Camp Knife (original Sheffield offerings) ?
 
P D said:
Are there any knife companies (besides Condor) out there who are still making a faithful interpretation of Hudson Bay Camp Knife (original Sheffield offerings) ?
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The Bark River versions still come up, but the dimensions are off some. Windlass made a version (off, but with good reviews) that still comes up sometimes. Other than the Condor, Bark River, and Windlass, most versions you see are customs of various degrees of authenticity. There was a beautiful replica made in Europe for a bit, under the original Jukes Coulson name, but I was never able to source it.
 
tltt said:
The Bark River versions still come up, but the dimensions are off some. Windlass made a version (off, but with good reviews) that still comes up sometimes. Other than the Condor, Bark River, and Windlass, most versions you see are customs of various degrees of authenticity. There was a beautiful replica made in Europe for a bit, under the original Jukes Coulson name, but I was never able to source it.
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Thanks T tltt . I will check out Windlass. There was a gorgeous Hudson Bay Knife used in the film "The Revenant" ... not sure who the maker is.
 
My condor hudson bay pattern is the original release. I stripped it, and thinned it some. It needs more thinning.
 
P D said:
Are there any knife companies (besides Condor) out there who are still making a faithful interpretation of Hudson Bay Camp Knife (original Sheffield offerings) ?
Click to expand...
@PD Have a look at post #113
 
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