Why don't you post in the Custom sub-forum?

I hope I'm not the one that went on the ignore list yet, Joss, for I hope we can still find a way to make this constructive.

Much of this thread has dwelt around a perception that the Custom Forum is an unwelcome place for the new or mid-level knifemaker. My question and your response indicates there is at least some mild justification for that perception.

Given your proposal that the Custom Forum is indeed an appropriate venue for the guys who don't fall into the "Collector" class, what approach is necessary to offer an opportunity for participation in the Custom Forum to be beneficial to these folks? What do they have to say or ask for when they post a knife so it will get valuable constructive criticism from people with good advice?
 
Mr. Fitzgerald, may I ask you something? Do you know good advice when you hear it or read it? You seem to be an intelligent, astute man. I hope I am not sounding impertinent, but that ignore button works just as well for the knifemakers. You know, when someone is being a jerk, for the sheer joy of feeling self important. You can see the pattern in their posts. You also know when someone is genuinely expressing a critique that is aimed at improving your work.

Whether there is a sub forum specific for commentary or whatever....that wont change the problem. Which is, that some people are incapable of being civil, polite, and courteous. I've not read a single post from a single maker who doesn't want critiquing that will help them. What I have read is that there are occasions when said critique is delivered in a way that is crushing and demeaning. There is No way to mandate courteous behavior, that comes intrinsically from within an individual.

tanya begg
 
fitzo said:
Much of this thread has dwelt around a perception that the Custom Forum is an unwelcome place for the new or mid-level knifemaker. My question and your response indicates there is at least some mild justification for that perception.

?
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The custom forum has never been unwelcome to new makers. Generally if people don't have something decent or constructive to say, it isn't said.

Makers tend to get defensive when their "children" aren't appreciated. We had a long thread about giraffe bone and makers defended the material up and down...Numerous people got angry and upset when told by most collectors they felt it to be substandard handle material for the price.

It became a shouting match. In my experience, shouting is a poor selling tool.
 
Mike,

No, you're nowhere close to the ignore list. I can deal with some mildly insulting comment. It's buffonery and trolling I cannot. Tai Goo was the lucky winner. As far as I'm concerned you're contributing something of value here. Tai is taking a perverse pleasure in antagonizing people.

I don't know how to answer your question Mike. There are knives that purely and simply I have no interest commenting on. Most of the time they are coarsely made and are of a design that has been repeated 10 million times before. Sometimes, they are well executed "ABS school" bowies or hunters with a wood handle, of a design that has been done 1,000 or 2,000 before.

What I will say is that I will go the extra mile to comment for a contributor who has previously earned my respect by his own comments, or previous knives that were more interesting. I'll also go the extra mile for people who are attempting something a little bit bolder. Also, sometimes I'm just in a good mood and I have time to waste. ;)

The good news is that there are plenty of people interested in user grade knives, in the custom forum, the wilderness forum, or whatching the for sale forums.

At the end of the day though, the fact is that no one is entitled to a review, a critique, or even an encouragement. I also have to wonder - if you are a beginner and are making a standard wood handled drop point with a press-fit nicket silver guard, what do you want from a collector? I mean, obviously, this is a knife that has been made countless times before. Obviously you know that NiSi and wood isn't going to get rave comments. Obviously, you know your level of skill and know better than anyone where your "areas for growth opportunity" (as we say in the corporate world) are. So what do you want to get from collectors? If it's just a pat in the back, this might not be the right idea.
 
I think some of you might need to lighten up,... and give the man some skin! :D
 
I'd like to think I know good advice when I read it, Tanya, but then it's often difficult to judge perceptions versus reality from within one's own skin. :) (Personally, I don't use the ignore button, ever. It creates discontinuities in the threads as one reads them. To be honest, I look at it more as keeping the adversaries in ones sight rather than allowing them behind you. I'd rather be able to joust with any assholes face to face. I am not averse to foregoing politeness when necessary. :D )

My comment to Joss was not so much regarding how to weed out the shi**ers that might make us feel bad, so to speak, as it was how to gain notice for the "little guys". If the Custom Forum is to be encouraging for makers at all levels, then there has to be an environment where they believe they'll get fair assessment and constructive criticism for their current level of knifemaking and not simply ignored.

It doesn't bother me at all if that's not the tenor of the forum. If it's more a place that pays attention only to the knives at Todd's, Nick's, and Don's level, or even only forged knives, that's really okay. All that anyone really has to do here, after all, is post the knife and ask for serious constructive analysis of their work with an eye toward improvement.

If, however, dialogue between the two sub-forums can create a new opportunity for the newer guys to participate "over there" also, then I am encouraging that to take place here and now and get beyond the earlier part of this thread.

There is a rather viable theory that says that growth can only come from conflict. Improvement can only come after the mistakes are made. Perhaps we can transition from the conflict portion into the growth segment at this point?
 
I used to post there but found my self doing so less and less simply because of a few reasons
1) Id rather spend my "invested time" posting with other makers about MAKING lol
2) a couple of posters over there seem to start threads that are provocative simply for its own sake or steer them into the "pissing match" direction and even though I recently replied to the most recent one I usually dont have time for that horsepucky
( in hindsight though Im glad I did because reading that thread led me here!)
3) my work is mid end user market, ie 150-300 usd, Im making nice functional art but am not spending the time per piece to evolve the individual piece into high art. reason for this is simple, my main market is the local camping and fishing tourist crowd, they have no interest in paying what I would charge for an "art knife" Ive got a couple of high end pieces at one of the shops that carries my work but I sell about 20 150-300 knives for every 600 one so Im really not interested in the feedback, that forum is for all intents and purposes the high end maker collectors forum.
 
:D hey brotha! *slaps ya five* ive got all the new truck parts for the 77...HOPEFULLY ill see you THIS november :)
(sorry for the OT yall heh)
 
Joss said:
I don't know how to answer your question Mike. There are knives that purely and simply I have no interest commenting on. Most of the time they are coarsely made and are of a design that has been repeated 10 million times before. Sometimes, they are well executed "ABS school" bowies or hunters with a wood handle, of a design that has been done 1,000 or 2,000 before.

What I will say is that I will go the extra mile to comment for a contributor who has previously earned my respect by his own comments, or previous knives that were more interesting. I'll also go the extra mile for people who are attempting something a little bit bolder. Also, sometimes I'm just in a good mood and I have time to waste. ;)

The good news is that there are plenty of people interested in user grade knives, in the custom forum, the wilderness forum, or whatching the for sale forums.

At the end of the day though, the fact is that no one is entitled to a review, a critique, or even an encouragement. I also have to wonder - if you are a beginner and are making a standard wood handled drop point with a press-fit nicket silver guard, what do you want from a collector? I mean, obviously, this is a knife that has been made countless times before. Obviously you know that NiSi and wood isn't going to get rave comments. Obviously, you know your level of skill and know better than anyone where your "areas for growth opportunity" (as we say in the corporate world) are. So what do you want to get from collectors? If it's just a pat in the back, this might not be the right idea.
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That's all very fairly presented and good food for thought, Joss. I appreciate that sincerity, devoid of any posturing but frankly honest. A polite explanation of realities that any reading this can gain perspective from.

Thank you.

Perhaps after some of the threads of the immediate past have fallen off the front page in the Custom Forum, I shall find it a much more enjoyable place than my recent reading led me to perceive.
 
(Personally, I don't use the ignore button, ever. It creates discontiuities in the threads as one reads them. To be honest, I look at it more as keeping the adversaries in ones sight rather than allowing them behind you. I'd rather be able to joust with any assholes face to face. I am not averse to foregoing politeness when necessary. :D )

I agree with you there!! I am the same way!

My comment to Joss was not so much regarding how to weed out the shi**ers that might make us feel bad, so to speak, as it was how to gain notice for the "little guys". If the Custom Forum is to be encouraging for makers at all levels, then there has to be an environment where they believe they'll get fair assessment and constructive criticism for their current level of knifemaking and not simply ignored.


I think the only way to do that is for the maker to post his work in as many forums and sub forums as possible, and specifically ask for the assessment. The snobelite will not bother, but I believe there are many more collectors, who far outnumber the snobelite, who would be more than happy to oblige. I believe it is the responsibility of the maker to SEEK OUT the critique he needs to improve, if he isn't getting it online, than through other means.

It doesn't bother me at all if that's not the tenor of the forum. If it's more a place that pays attention only to the knives at Todd's, Nick's, and Don's level, or even only forged knives, that's really okay. All that anyone really has to do here, after all, is post the knife and ask for serious constructive analysis of their work with an eye toward improvement.


I am sure Todd would disagree with you about him being on Don's and Nick's level!!! I think Todd gets the attention he does, because his wife is a posting fool who sees the internet as the next best thing to sliced bread, because it gets his work in front of the world quickly with little expense, but that of her time!!

If, however, dialogue between the two sub-forums can create a new opportunity for the newer guys to participate "over there" also, then I am encouraging that to take place here and now and get beyond the earlier part of this thread.

I think that should happen as welL!!!.

There is a rather viable theory that says that growth can only come from conflict. Improvement can only come after the mistakes are made. Perhaps we can transition from the conflict portion into the growth segment at this point?

Definitetly!!!!!! and I have one more question?? how come all you knifemakers have so much time to post??? I know why Todd doesn't....the chain on his leg doesn't extend beyond the shop.:p
 
Joss said:
You cannot offend me Tai, but I don't care one little bit whether you like my avatar or not. Not sure why you think it doesn't fit - even if you know what this avatar is about (do you?), you shouldn't presume to know me, therefore you shouldn't presume to know whether it fits.
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I certainly don't want to get back into the discussion of critique, but unless I am reading way too deeply into Tai's comment or have read too many Zen teachings, I interpreted Tai's off-the-cuff opinionated comment on your avatar to be a simple demonstration on how easy it is for someone to see something they don't like and whip off a negative comment. Possibly also a demonstration of how easy it is to "not care" about opinions that appear to have no foundation, yet to feel compelled to respond to what is perceived as rude or uncalled for.

Not trying to take sides or inject myself into the mix (im done with that), but perhaps it will make sense to someone else. Much of Tai's "odd" posts ring with a zen Koan type of feel...only accessible if understood for what they are trying to "show" but not implicitly say.
 
When I first entered this thread, it was simply to offer an opinion that most of the makers on this knifemaking forum are best put to seek opinions and constructive criticism on their work here. Knifemakers, I feel, tend to make considerations about material choices secondary for the newer guys and focus more on the mechanics of construction and execution.

It is, of course, the buyers who, in the final analysis, determine the acceptability of materials and styles and quality through their purchasing power. It is thus incumbent upon any maker who desires upward mobility to pay heed to those desires. And thus, obviously, the benefit of reading in the forum where the buyers hang out and discuss these things.

The final humor about all of it is that knives sell at every level, regardless of what we think or say about. People buy Kenneth King's knives despite the fact that mokume has no place on a knife. Buster never cared one whit that the stainless he used "sucked" in most people's opinion, and neither did his buyers. There are many hunters who'd never before known of "custom knives" out there skinning a deer with a butt-ugly knife that held a better edge than anything they'd ever had.

I said, "There's room for everyone on the bus". I'm glad for all of it, for I truly still enjoy knives as much as I did as a child.
 
David Schott said:
I certainly don't want to get back into the discussion of critique, but unless I am reading way too deeply into Tai's comment or have read too many Zen teachings, I interpreted Tai's off-the-cuff opinionated comment on your avatar to be a simple demonstration on how easy it is for someone to see something they don't like and whip off a negative comment. Possibly also a demonstration of how easy it is to "not care" about opinions that appear to have no foundation, yet to feel compelled to respond to what is perceived as rude or uncalled for.

Not trying to take sides or inject myself into the mix (im done with that), but perhaps it will make sense to someone else. Much of Tai's "odd" posts ring with a zen Koan type of feel...only accessible if understood for what they are trying to "show" but not implicitly say.
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BINGO!

Nice post!

Thank you! :)
 
Mike,

The custom forum *does* have a focus on ABS-style bowies. This is true, there's no arguing it. Personally I would love to see some more diverse stuff. I have taken some specific steps to do that. For example:

- I'm hosting (at my cost) pictures of knives owned by collector Dave Ellis, so that he can share some of his knives with us. The vast majority of those are not ABS knives.
- I have posted pictures of different knives, e.g., Tim Wright folders, small Loerchner dagger, etc.
- I have explained several times to makers how to post pics of their stuff, or how to take better pictures.

I am not the only one to do that. Jim Cooper, Buddy Thomason, Win Heger have posted huge numbers of pics of completely different types of work. Others have educated their peers on some old school makers such as Harvey McBurnette, and shared freely their knowledge.

We're working at it. Yes, we prefer beautiful knives. Most of us display knives more than we cut with them (I live in a city, don't hunt, and work in a big corporation - all I need / can carry is a small folder). It's just the way it is.
 
tntbegg said:
..Definitetly!!!!!! and I have one more question?? how come all you knifemakers have so much time to post??? I know why Todd doesn't....the chain on his leg doesn't extend beyond the shop.:p
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I post a lot because I am more "retired" than knifemaker, Tanya. I am more an enthusiast and student of the craft than anything else nowadays. I was a much more serious knifemaker back in the 80's, before my life changed. Health issues often leave me stuck in a chair most of the day, so I amuse myself following the knife world. I used to help the newer folks more, but nowadays I just poke my head up to be a gadfly more than anything. :D

Skillls have eroded, and my best knives are behind me, my best ideas never to be executed. I mostly spend my limited shoptime making small simple knives. For me, it's all about having fun where I can; and on those days when it's not fun, there is no reason to make an effort to force myself and suffer for it.

And probably why I should stay out of discussions by the more serious knifemakers.:eek:
 
tntbegg said:
Definitetly!!!!!! and I have one more question?? how come all you knifemakers have so much time to post??? I know why Todd doesn't....the chain on his leg doesn't extend beyond the shop.:p
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Because we are mostly either retired or semi retired, ALL “independently wealthy“,… with absolutely nothing better to do, or could give a hoot, that we are even capable of... And, over there, how do you call it?… forum junkies!… :D
 
Joss,

I look forward to following any effort that encourages a larger spread of styles being displayed.

As an enthusiast, art knives have always been where my interest focused. I like to think I appreciate skill and innovation more than adhering to any specific school of thought. Whether it's superb execution in an "ABS bowie", the creativity of Virgil England or Tai Goo, or the exquisite carving of Arpad Bojtos, I love it all.
 
fitzo said:
And probably why I should stay out of discussions by the more serious knifemakers.:eek:
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DON'T
YOU
DARE

You're hereby expressly forbidden from excluding yourself, you cantankerous old lout!:D
 
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