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Will Moon "Spindle" lock?

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by insta9ves, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. insta9ves

    insta9ves

    Apr 3, 2007
    Has anyone seen the new Will Moon Banshee model with his modified Axis lock that he called Spindle lock? I like the design and was thinking about getting his new model. The only problem I have with the Spindle lock is that Will Moon is currently in the process of getting a patent for his "proprietary" lock and was planning on licensing it to other manufacturers.

    The Spindle lock works the same way as the Axis lock and instead of using omega springs on both side, it's using coil spring. It's similar to Benchmade Anthem however in this case it's using and a guide rod and coil spring nested in the handle scale on each side. Does this modification warranted a new patent when the lock works the same just installed differently? I personally question the ethic behind doing this..

    Will's argument is that he equates his Spindle lock modification of Axis lock to Demko's Triad lock which is based on the backlock. However IMO the Triad lock has way more distinction than the back lock because the entire load bearing mechanism is changed, not to mention the "angled/hooked" lock engagement that require the lock bar pivot to have oval cutout for forward/backward movement in order for the hook to engage. This is not the case for Spindle lock which essentially works the same as Axis lock.

    What im trying to ask is that, are people allowed to make slight modification of the axis lock then apply a patent for it like a proprietary lock? Won't Benchmade be able to patent their Anthem style axis lock if that's the case? I guess this is up to the patent office to decide, but this kinda turns me off, no matter how much better the modified lock is..

    Edit: BTW here a video of Moon explaining the Spindle lock for reference.

     
    SpySmasher likes this.
  2. WValtakis

    WValtakis Gold Member Gold Member

    May 29, 2004
    If that's the only thing that turns you off about Will Moon, you should do some reading in the Good, Bad, and Ugly subforum.

    On topic, it seems sleazy...like a lot of the things he's done.
     
  3. vanadium

    vanadium Gold Member Gold Member

    774
    Apr 5, 2003
    Do you mean apply for a patent? Anyone can apply for a patent on anything, but that doesn't mean it will be granted. Will it be granted? That's a question for a patent attorney, or the patent office. Uninformed opinions won't really matter on this one.

    That said, Will Moon seems to be able to do whatever he wants, so long as he remains a free man.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  4. insta9ves

    insta9ves

    Apr 3, 2007
    Well like i said, it’s up to the patent office, and yes anyone is free to do that, as well as being a jerk since it’s not necessarily illegal.
    Ethic is in question here. My mind is already made up and i don’t need anyone to convince me anything. Just wanted to hear people’s opinion on this, as well as to enjoy the creative snarky comments that’s coming ;-)
     
    Charlie Mike likes this.
  5. b00n

    b00n Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 15, 2016
    @Charlie Mike loves pimping Moon Knives. :thumbsup:
    As for the lock, Will can invent the mother of all locks, I'd still stay clear of him. I actually think the Stormcrow is a nice design, but I don't tend to give money to a-holes.
     
    Nostimos, Lance Leon, palonej and 7 others like this.
  6. squarebox86

    squarebox86

    184
    Feb 6, 2014
    Looks like a bolt-lock x axis-lock hybrid...
     
    allenC likes this.
  7. Quiet

    Quiet "That guy" Platinum Member

    Oct 11, 2013
    Whatever that is, it's trash. Just like Will Moon.
     
  8. unwisefool

    unwisefool Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 22, 2007
    I know we aren't supposed to like him, but I do like his designs. As to whether that lock will be granted a patent, I have no idea.
     
    Lance Leon and SeppukuSamurai like this.
  9. KAEDC

    KAEDC Gold Member Gold Member

    883
    Apr 25, 2013
    Will's personality and customer interactions aside, as they are irrelevant to the question...

    Short answer is, in my opinion, it is ethical to apply for a patent on something that you have designed. I view it thru the lens of there is no harm or foul in trying, an application does not mean it is granted.

    I do not see why licensing it is a problem. After all the purpose of a patent in to protect your intellectually property, and keep people who are not you from profiting off it. I seriously doubt that the majority of filed patents being submitted by people out of charity, just show to the idea.

    I also interpret your post as you don't believe it is original enough to warrant patent protection,and that he knows this, and therefor it is unethical to apply. I am not going to presume to know what Will Moon thinks, and I am pretty sure I do not want to most of the time anyway. However,as covered previously, the patent office is more or less responsible to determine if a design is sufficiently different to warrant a patent. I do not think that you are implying that he wait to be told his design is sufficiently original, before it is OK to try patent it, but perhaps I am mistaken.

    Ultimately I can understand that his action on this seems violates your personal ethics, but I do not see how that makes it unethical in a larger context. I am also trying to isolate my discussion only to the patent application.

    Full disclosure, I own both a Stormcrow and a Banshee, and personally I have not had any major problems with them or Will, but I also live fairly close to him, and can pickup and handle items in person, face to face. He has always polite to me.

    Edited to re-frame some comments after a re-read of the original post!
     
  10. Insipid Moniker

    Insipid Moniker Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 28, 2011
    Not a lawyer by a long shot, but my understanding is you can get a patent on an existing design as long as you make a clear improvement to it. In which case, the patent granted would protect your new, improved design, but the original would still be available for use.

    Will Moon is a scumbag and I wouldn't touch any of his knives with a 10 foot pole, regardless, but that's my understanding of the law.
     
    palonej, Armadew, SpySmasher and 2 others like this.
  11. goldie

    goldie

    Feb 18, 2000
    (Will Moon is a scumbag and I wouldn't touch any of his knives with a 10 foot pole) +1 ! I don't care what he comes out with; that name is worthless to me just like Brad Duncan And Rob Dalton,to name a few...
     
  12. Charlie Mike

    Charlie Mike Sober since 1-7-14 (still a Paranoid Nutjob) Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Nov 1, 2000
  13. FullMetalJackass

    FullMetalJackass Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 10, 2016
    Flashy blades, but there is a dark side of the moon. After a bit of investigation, you'll definitely reconsider buying anything from that guy.
     
    Lance Leon, Mo2 and Charlie Mike like this.
  14. Mo2

    Mo2

    Apr 8, 2016
    Avoid will moon. There are several threads about him that are negative on this forum.

    Here's two vids also.



     
    Rival1314 and Charlie Mike like this.
  15. insta9ves

    insta9ves

    Apr 3, 2007
    When i made this post, it’s mostly just to talk about the “new” lock. I never looked into Will Moon’s knives or his history before he came out with the Banshee which IMO is very interesting and well designed. I just don’t think he should call this lock his proprietary design, afterall it’s still axis-style lock.

    Can anyone give a TL;DR on why he’s so hated here?

    Honestly I almost pulled the trigger on his Banshee model over the holiday. My interest in his work went from extremely high to slightly turned off the more IG or YouTube post he made. His latest YouTube video is 13min of super cringy self promotion about how he went all in to take care of his customer.
     
  16. vanadium

    vanadium Gold Member Gold Member

    774
    Apr 5, 2003
    From talking to him and his past customers, my subjective impression is this: He has sold knives with egregious defects, and he doesn't make it right with his customers — rinse and repeat, for years and years. I don't know how he's kept his business. He's likable and seems like he really wants to be a great knifemaker, and his attitude can come across as very serious, but the same complaints continue to surface and he doesn't express that he's learned deeply from those incidents. I've heard him argue more than once that he has "improved" and should be given yet another chance, but he seems willing to burn any number of customers along that path of improvement. I actually feel bad for the guy, that he can't translate his experiences into change. But I also feel bad for the people he's ostensibly harmed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    Charlie Mike likes this.
  17. Quiet

    Quiet "That guy" Platinum Member

    Oct 11, 2013
    You've been here since 2007 and don't know how the search function works? There's a thread dedicated to him in the Feedback section, it's highly illuminating.
     
    Lance Leon and Mo2 like this.
  18. b00n

    b00n Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 15, 2016
    Since I am not a lawyer but I am curious, Benchmade's Axis Lock is basically free to be used now. What happens if Will Moon gets his patent approved, would it need to be worded clearly differently from what the Axis Lock was? Or could he potentially start doing a "CS San Mai" Thing and try to come after people for using "his lock" for example with the Hogue Knives?
     
    Charlie Mike likes this.
  19. vanadium

    vanadium Gold Member Gold Member

    774
    Apr 5, 2003
    No, it would have to be a "new invention". Wording is not what matters. Whether or not it's a "new invention" would be revealed in the patent process.
     
    marrenmiller and Charlie Mike like this.
  20. vanadium

    vanadium Gold Member Gold Member

    774
    Apr 5, 2003
    This type of answer never works. Every time someone answers a question with "just search for it", their answer becomes the #1 search match for the question. It's like a law of the internet.
     
    insta9ves likes this.

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