Zero Tolerance Liner Lock Closures?

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marrenmiller said:
I guess I have to ask then: why even require a functional lock then? I don't think anybody here cuts with the spine of their knives, or batons their knives through material. They just don't want the thing to ever be able to fold on them if there's an accident, lapse in judgment, or if they plan on including their knives in a defensive carry rotation. Most of these knives are "tactical" knives, which still carries a connotation of being usable for defense in a pinch.
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midnight flyer said:
I think you actually nailed it. When "locks" came out a million years ago I never saw the manufacturers touting their knives to be as strong or durable as a fixed knife. Sure heard a lot of owners and testers do that, though.

I look at locks on a knife like a safety device on a tool. The tool is still dangerous regardless of the safety features it might have. And if a tool was used 100% correctly all the time, and the operator was never working in poor conditions, misjudged a task requirement, was really tired but had to press on to finish a job, never slipped or lost their balance, or had a simple lapse of judgement (things on the mind: truck pmt, house pmt, Dr. pmt/visit, family obligations, other pmts, family challenges, etc.,) while working, you would most likely never need a safety device on a tool.

I learned to use knives 55 years ago when locks weren't prevalent and use my knives the same way today. Always cut away from you. Don't pry with your knife. Don't do anything but cut with your knife. Be careful about binding the blade, and if you do don't try to rock the knife out of the material.
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Couple of thoughts from an older guy who carries traditionals, including the non-locking large Sodbuster.

1) I think it's worth remembering that one of the first locking folders, the Spanish Navaja (c early 1700s) was closely tied to knife fighting. The Buck 110's popularity among bikers in the 70s (and today) is not because it's a stout working knife. I believe the same thing is true about the modern one hand opening liner/frame lock designs. They open quickly and lock well enough to stab somebody. Can't do that with a Sodbuster (as safely).

2) Personally, I do rely on a lock within reason, particular for stabbing and piercing cuts. Common examples include, splitting frozen hamburgers, cutting down cardboard, drilling cuts in various materials. I was cutting down boxes last night with my Buck 110 and didn't give a second thought making an initial plunge cut. I would have been more careful with the Sodbuster.

3) The thing I find hinky about liner/frame locks compared to lock backs is that lock backs tend to give some indication that things aren't fully locked up (the lock bar typically sits proud) and when released, the lock bar spring tension prevents the blade from swinging freely. On a liner/frame lock, I can't easily tell that it is fully locked (as opposed to jammed with crud) and if it does let go, the blade flops around. If I had to one hand deploy a knife for work many times a day, I'd be moving to a mid mounted back lock (e.g. Buck Spitfire).
 
None of my ZT's failed, I didn’t whack them, but I hit them hard enough to be confident they won’t fail with reasonable use.
 
pinnah said:
If I had to one hand deploy a knife for work many times a day, I'd be moving to a mid mounted back lock (e.g. Buck Spitfire).
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I agree to a certain extent. For me though, the best one hand opening and closing would be something like the axis lock, arc lock, compression lock, or button lock. A good back lock like spyderco makes would be next. I find a back lock like that easier to manipulate than a liner or frame lock. If I had to use my knife constantly all day a frame lock would not be my top choice.
 
craytab said:
I asked that as well. Never got an answer...
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The inner circle of course. I mean that's where all the knowledge resides.
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So I think I read here between the bickering...

ZT fixed two of them? Any more? This may be a non issue if they can fix this issue now but with only two fixed I'd like to hear more reports.
 
stiletto100 said:
None of my ZT's failed, I didn’t whack them, but I hit them hard enough to be confident they won’t fail with reasonable use.
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That's the first thing I did with my reground 0055 (the ZT I carry most) after reading this thread. It seems to me the only reasonable response -- check and make sure yours don't have this problem.

My 0055 didn't, by the way, for which I was glad.
 
Mo2 said:
So I think I read here between the bickering...

ZT fixed two of them? Any more? This may be a non issue if they can fix this issue now but with only two fixed I'd like to hear more reports.
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I can't speak for others here, but I sent them an 0200 with lock movement, and it came back virtually unchanged. Not sure how many others had a similar experience, but it sure seems like they would have noticed when they sent it back.

I won't say that's entirely a ZT issue, because I've had a similar experience with Microtech (Socom Delta sent in for lock issues, came back with lock issues). It just seems to be a liner/frame lock thing, where it's hard to fix.
 
marrenmiller said:
I can't speak for others here, but I sent them an 0200 with lock movement, and it came back virtually unchanged. Not sure how many others had a similar experience, but it sure seems like they would have noticed when they sent it back.
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And since then maybe zt figured it out. Might be worth sending it back.
 
Mo2 said:
And since then maybe zt figured it out. Might be worth sending it back.
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How? Since it is most likely a blade tang geometry issue, I see no solution other than replace the blade, which I doubt KIA would be willing to do (unless the blade is rocking, in which case they may likely choose to use a thicker stop pin or a thicker lockbar insert to fix the issue ;))
 
sharp_edge said:
How? Since it is most likely a blade tang geometry issue, I see no solution other than replace the blade, which I doubt KIA would be willing to do (unless the blade is rocking, in which case they may likely choose to use a thicker stop pin or a thicker lockbar insert to fix the issue ;))
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But wouldn't fixing the issue be good?

The alternative is hang onto an expensive knife with a flaw just so you have something to complain about.
 
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I've sent knives into both Buck and Kershaw/ZT getting the knife back 100% untouched. Apparently having a warranty department that serves as a mail sorting and returning center isn't company exclusive. At least they put it in a new box instead of just taping a new label over the one I sent it with
 
dkb45 said:
I've sent knives into both Buck and Kershaw/ZT getting the knife back 100% untouched. Apparently having a warranty department that serves as a mail sorting and returning center isn't company exclusive. At least they put it in a new box instead of just taping a new label over the one I sent it with
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I had one experience sending a knife to ZT for a warranty repair, only to have it returned absolutely untouched, and with my original warranty form. I was pretty bummed, to say the least. However, I gave them a second chance, and sent in a another knife for a non-warranty repair. That one was repaired, damaged parts replaced, and returned quickly. And only charged a tiny nominal fee that included expedited shipping.

That second experience was amazing, but still a bit difficult to get the thoughts out of my head from the first one. If they had even bothered to contact me with questions. Or even to tell me that they tried, and we're unable. I would have been satisfied. But no, they chose to piss me off instead. Eventually I got around to cracking it open (a 0561 zero detent), and repaired it myself.
 
Same experience here. I called Kai customer service and politely explained the CPM-154 Leek I sent in had been returned with no repairs. The blade would not fully deploy and the liner lock does not engage enough to lock.

They said they would call me next week. I’m kinda hoping they foot the shipping (since I’ve paid to send it once) and make it right.

I’ll report back on the results.
 
yamsi12 said:
Ive tested all 18 of my ZTs and none have failed FWIW.
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That’s a relief. I don’t think anyone is saying it happens to even a large minority of ZTs. Just enough that it is too many to be rare.

Seems like some of the most commonly affected models are the 0450 and 0620/630.
 
Seymor Beavers said:
Get a nice small fixed blade ,prob solved.
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This has been suggested about half a dozen times in this thread. I don't mean to be curt, but it's really not helpful...at all. No one here with ZT issues is saying, "Whycome the foldy knife fold? They shuld make a foldy knife that dun fold!"

The issue is that some folks have paid for a premium product marketed as being super tough, and some of them are failing very light testing...not real world testing, mind you. I still find these failures academic and not earth-shaddering. Still, it's frustrating when you can buy a knife for half the price and it not slip off the lock.

The biggest issue I see is that when folks are sending their knives for warranty work, they are being returned without repair. I'm a bit miffed myself. I sent a 350 in that would fail with simple light pressure on the spine. I paid a few extra bucks to have the blade replaced. I figured the issue was with the grind on the blade, not the lock.

My 350 with new blade still will fail. So that either means I got another crappy grind on the blade or my liner lock is ground wrong which kinda sucks.

I have probably a dozen sub 2" fixed blades. I routinely carry a small karda (khukuri accessory knife) in my watch pocket. More days than not I have a Fiddleback Hiking Buddy on my hip. They are great small fixed blade knives, and very useful...but they don't make spending $140 on a knife, 10 bucks to ship it back, and another 30 to swap out the blade only to have it still fold when I don't want it to any easier to swallow.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
This has been suggested about half a dozen times in this thread. I don't mean to be curt, but it's really not helpful...at all. No one here with ZT issues is saying, "Whycome the foldy knife fold? They shuld make a foldy knife that dun fold!"

The issue is that some folks have paid for a premium product marketed as being super tough, and some of them are failing very light testing...not real world testing, mind you. I still find these failures academic and not earth-shaddering. Still, it's frustrating when you can buy a knife for half the price and it not slip off the lock.

The biggest issue I see is that when folks are sending their knives for warranty work, they are being returned without repair. I'm a bit miffed myself. I sent a 350 in that would fail with simple light pressure on the spine. I paid a few extra bucks to have the blade replaced. I figured the issue was with the grind on the blade, not the lock.

My 350 with new blade still will fail. So that either means I got another crappy grind on the blade or my liner lock is ground wrong which kinda sucks.

I have probably a dozen sub 2" fixed blades. I routinely carry a small karda (khukuri accessory knife) in my watch pocket. More days than not I have a Fiddleback Hiking Buddy on my hip. They are great small fixed blade knives, and very useful...but they don't make spending $140 on a knife, 10 bucks to ship it back, and another 30 to swap out the blade only to have it still fold when I don't want it to any easier to swallow.
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^THIS.

It's ridiculous that we have some saints jumping in once in a while and providing a brilliant suggestion: "Get a Fixed Blade!". For god's sake, read the thread first to see what the discussion is really about.:rolleyes:
 
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