A Simple Statement

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To all that say I do not know the whole story, I have read the many threads, and followed the many links. I did spend about two and a half hours reading it all a while back and have kept tabs on this thread. Did I see it all, I do not know, but I have seen a lot to understand the dead horse comments, but am still put off by the berating of Wolf and blind following and acceptance that CRK is at no fault and anyone who disagrees is the idiot. Still optimistic to hear from CRK after Blade to hear a technical answer. If I were getting attacked, I would be "beating a dead horse" too to try to defend myself. Anyone can bash anyone on the internet, it is too easy, not being face-to-face, and I doubt the negativity would be as high if we were all together in a room talking it out.

I really don't think Sebenza owners relating their positive experiences with CRK support and/or Chris Reeve directly can be called "blind following and acceptance" but merely pointing out that others have not been disappointed by their CRK products and service.

I've been in the manufacturing world and have seen what customers do to products and what they claim when they return them for repair or replacement. I've also been using folding knives for forty years and have NEVER seen the kind of damage shown without the knife having been seriously abused. These are pocket knives folks. Just because Ernie Emerson (note, Chris hasn't) says his knives can be driven through a car door doesn't mean that doing so won't have some impact on the future performance. If I leap my car over a stream a la Dukes of Hazzard then take it to the dealer complaining of poor handling and tire wear I doubt they will consider it warranty work.
 
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"I've also been using folding knives for forty years and have NEVER seen the kind of damage shown without the knife having been serious abused."

I have to respect your forty plus years, and agree with that statement, but I would ask why do you automatically assume abuse and not a manufacturing defect? That is the problem I have. I can understand some lost trust in consumers who will lie and try to abuse the warranty process, but not everyone is out to abuse the warranty. I do not know the whole history of any knife, nobody can (with a second-hand knife), so is it not just as plausible that a manufacturing defect could be the problem here? As I have said in other posts a Ti/SS friction interference is not metallurgically the best idea and must be executed very well. What if the heat treat on the Ti was not quite right or the Ti supplier shipped out a bad batch, or the tang of the blade was left with a sharp burr? Things happen as you know being in manufacturing (I am a product/manufacturing engineer myself and see a lot of crazy things), so why the rush to jump on any person who has a bad product and totally blame him without considering all possibilities?
I do enjoy hearing the positive reviews about the company, but that is separate from guys just assuming it is the customer's fault no matter what and berating him and passing judgement w/out all the facts or misrepresenting the facts. I would guess CRK would get a 95% or better approval rating as a company, but this thread is about a potential defect or potential customer abuse.
 
Can you please hush for a day, and just let us enjoy the release of the 25:p
 
Reading this thread makes me thank whatever Gods may exist that I am not in a customer service position.
Some people think my job entails customer service, but they find out real quick that they can piss off.:)

I've thought about getting into knifemaking as a way to make money, but seeing as I'd have to deal with customers, I'm thinking now that some other career would be more conducive to continued mental health. Too many whiners out there.
 
"I've also been using folding knives for forty years and have NEVER seen the kind of damage shown without the knife having been serious abused."

I have to respect your forty plus years, and agree with that statement, but I would ask why do you automatically assume abuse and not a manufacturing defect? That is the problem I have. I can understand some lost trust in consumers who will lie and try to abuse the warranty process, but not everyone is out to abuse the warranty. I do not know the whole history of any knife, nobody can (with a second-hand knife), so is it not just as plausible that a manufacturing defect could be the problem here? As I have said in other posts a Ti/SS friction interference is not metallurgically the best idea and must be executed very well. What if the heat treat on the Ti was not quite right or the Ti supplier shipped out a bad batch, or the tang of the blade was left with a sharp burr? Things happen as you know being in manufacturing (I am a product/manufacturing engineer myself and see a lot of crazy things), so why the rush to jump on any person who has a bad product and totally blame him without considering all possibilities?
I do enjoy hearing the positive reviews about the company, but that is separate from guys just assuming it is the customer's fault no matter what and berating him and passing judgement w/out all the facts or misrepresenting the facts. I would guess CRK would get a 95% or better approval rating as a company, but this thread is about a potential defect or potential customer abuse.

Even dead soft titanium wouldn't ding like that without abuse. Anything that would put a ding like that into a 1/8" slab of titanium would, IMHO be abuse.

That said, I'm outa here until we hear back from CRK on the further results of their testing.
 
I am sorry but I am probably going to upset some people, this is only my opinion so please take it in that context.
I love my Sebenza 21, but to me there seems to be a glaring fault.

This knife is designed to be opened with one hand on planet earth, the two main forces that apply are the force generated by a human hand and gravity. Though it seems that the Ti locking bar can not withstand the impact of the tool steel blade when these forces are used in the upper levels. To me the term abuse is being used when some undefined line is crossed by the driving mechanism, the human being, causing a failure in the integrity of the knifes locking system.

I would consider abuse is when an additional or third party force is applied which is above and beyond what a person can generate. Too put a limitation on this in my opinion is a short fall in the design.

I have other one hand opening knives that don't have this limitation. I find this a bit frustrating as I don't know the point at which failure will occur, so I find my self compensating by limiting the speed in which I operate my Sebenza. I have had my 21 for over a year now and edc it, as it ages it is wearing in and is becoming easier to open and more pleasurable to use. So the ability to flick it is becoming easier in daily use.

I love this knife, but it is not perfect as it is always in the back of my mind that I could damage it by just enjoying its beautiful action. Looking forward to the test results so the term abuse can be defined. The video of Chris wrist flicking a 21 certainly puts my mind a little to rest as that is quite extreme use, something I have not and am not likely to repeat though I would expect a thumb flick to be something the knife should cope with.

Rusty
 
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I have done warranty work in the electronics industry. Customers are often wrong!
 
If i spend $400 dollars on a knife i expect to have good warranty service. That means servicing a knife no matter where it was bought or who has owned it. From what i've read and heard, in general, CRK has great service. It does sound like wolf and a few others have legitimate complaints but i'm sure in the vast majority of cases CRK treats their customers well. The one thing that disturbs me is the tales of CR lossing his cool and yelling/arguing with customers. This is not how a business man should act. I work as a server part time and get really rude customers occasionally but when it comes down to it i'm getting payed to be there and they're paying to be there so i keep my cool and don't stoop down to their level. That's just how it works.

I wait tables too and if something is wrong with someone's food or experience I fix the problem immediately. My experience here is that my knife broke under normal use then im being told I have to spend more money to fix it. That's like if someone ordered chicken fajitas and they didn't like the chicken, so I told them they must not be tasting it right and that they have to pay for a new chicken breast. I think the most ridiculous thing about all of this is that they tell me that I opened my knife too hard too many times, then they go and do the exact same thing and end up with different results. This means they mis-assessed my knifes problem and told me it was my fault. You can imagine I'm annoyed, especially considering I have a decent collection of knives and this one takes the cake as being the most expensive and the most unreliable. It makes me laugh that they keep getting all these awards when they won't even address problems with the design that have negatively impacted a number of customers.
 
I really don't think Sebenza owners relating their positive experiences with CRK support and/or Chris Reeve directly can be called "blind following and acceptance" but merely pointing out that others have not been disappointed by their CRK products and service.

I've been in the manufacturing world and have seen what customers do to products and what they claim when they return them for repair or replacement. I've also been using folding knives for forty years and have NEVER seen the kind of damage shown without the knife having been seriously abused. These are pocket knives folks. Just because Ernie Emerson (note, Chris hasn't) says his knives can be driven through a car door doesn't mean that doing so won't have some impact on the future performance. If I leap my car over a stream a la Dukes of Hazzard then take it to the dealer complaining of poor handling and tire wear I doubt they will consider it warranty work.

This is another problem: you're assuming people are abusing their knives. The hardest thing I've ever cut is cardboard. I'm not doing ANYTHING any of my knives (ranging from kershaws to SOGs to spydercos) aren't capable of. And yet I and others who have problems are being demonized, being made out to be these sub-simian apes who can't even open a knife properly.

I'm at a point where I'm just going to sell the husk of a once-good knife because everyone else with a Chris Reeve knife is incapable of accepting that my problem-having knife actually could exist, because of course a bad lemon couldnt be made and anyone who has a broken knife did so because they're "driving it through a car door". I dont have the money to replace the lock face. I barely have the money to send it in. And now I'm at a point with this company that I don't believe they're going to rectify this problem so I'd just be wasting money on postage. I'd rather spend that on making $100 selling a broken sebenza.
 
"being demonized, being made out to be these sub-simian apes" Hey, in 15 pages, I missed this part...get a life :)
 
Id rather get a working knife. If this happened to you, you'd be upset too. You don't just drop $320 and not get upset when it breaks under normal wear
 
Id rather get a working knife. If this happened to you, you'd be upset too. You don't just drop $320 and not get upset when it breaks under normal wear

The sebenza doesn't break under "normal wear" which is what Chris is insinuating when he is doing his 8000x hard opening test. If you were to flick it open 20x a day, within a year the lock bar would STILL not look like some of the ones people have returned to the shop. Chris has sold the knife as a CUTTING tool and no more than that (which is what a knife is).

This thread has just gone in loops for a while, I only ever come back here to try to see if Chris ever updated on his original posts. I have had a seb for more than a year and I am guilty of opening it more than several times a day (because its a habit) and the lock bar still looks like the day I took it out of the box. Heck, I have even thumb flicked it with my left hand (and it is a right hand single thumb stud). How exactly is everyone eating up their lock bars so fast?!

Chris has made the same knife for years. Heck there was a thread the other day about a worn out lock bar that he serviced for FREE. So clearly either the man knows when he sees a used knife that needs a touch up from normal wear and a lock bar that is eaten up from abuse. Do people seriously think he rolls a dice and then decides who he is going to charge for wear and tear and who he is going to call abuse?

I have gotten some shitty sebenza's second hand, and it is mind boggling what people can do to a $400 folder (I usually try to only get LNIB or NIB but sometimes a used slips through the gap). The sebenza is sold and marketed as a knife for cutting purposes. It isn't even meant to be flicked. Just because the sebenza is called a work knife and runs for ~$400 doesn't mean it will take more abuse than other knives. You pay for the fit and finish, the pride of ownership, the design, and a lot of other things. But you aren't paying for a knife you can abuse. If you want a knife like that, get a Zero Tolerance or something. Maybe even a Hinderer. Heck a ZT you can pry with, beat up, and never have to pay for repairs. Not saying you should do that, but it would handle it a lot better than a sebenza. Different tools for different jobs.

I'm not a sebenza fan boy. But if the man sells a knife explicitly noting that it should not be flicked and is for cutting purposes only, I don't understand why so many people are getting butthurt when the knife doesn't turn into a automatic Hinderer. Seriously? And for those whose knives have failed, maybe they are just closing the blade too early, but I don't think warranty should cover that since you should know how to operate a frame lock before you jump into a CRK.

I'm not saying everyone is wrong, I am sure there are lemons, CRK is just like any other company. But I have doubts that ALL the commotion over messed up lock bars are lemons, I mean CRK is the yearly winner of Manufacturing, so its hard to believe all the lock bars that are warped that come back are lemons. It is extremely hard to believe after owning a CRK that the lock bar could ever be so warped under normal use. It isn't the decade old ones that are the problem, I can totally understand if those need some repairs from wear and tear, but its the new sebenzas that come back with a destroyed lock bar after a few months. What exactly is everyone using their sebenza for? What is "normal use" for those with broken sebenzas? If you just cut with it, open it without flicking, and clear the blade every time you close it, I have doubts that you will ever run into any problems.

I'm not even sure how those super warped lock bars Chris posted as possible. Do people spine whack their knives to make sure they are locked before they start cutting or something?

Someone who has had a lock bar mess up please come forward and tell us what exactly the knife was used for and how it was used so those who have never broken a lock bar can try to grasp what exactly is going on, because quite frankly from the other side of the fence it's hard to believe so many are "faulty" from "normal use." Especially such worn Ti.
 
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Someone who has had a lock bar mess up please come forward and tell us what exactly the knife was used for and how it was used so those who have never broken a lock bar can try to grasp what exactly is going on, because quite frankly from the other side of the fence it's hard to believe so many are "faulty" from "normal use." Especially such worn Ti.

I can give you my story. Bought a used small Insingo off the forum and told myself I wouldn't buy another because even at used cost it was about twice as expensive as any knife I'd purchased before it. About six months later, the Wilson Combat Small came out, and it only took a few days before I couldn't convince myself I didn't need it and ordered it on 10/17. It came a long week later as I was sleeping, but I jumped out of bed to answer the door and open it up like it was Christmas day.

It was very hard to open. I couldn't do it one handed. I had felt that once before, when I pinched a washer putting together my older one, but I was tired, so instead of messing with it, I went back to bed and left it for later. When I got back to it, it went back together with no change. It was my first brand new Seb, so I thought perhaps it was just the detent and needed to break in. I did play with it a bit, but keep in mind it takes 5-10 seconds to open+close it just once because of how tough it was, and it hurt my hands to do repeatedly, so I probably would do it <=20 times before having to stop.

As this went on, I'd clean it maybe once a day and noticed the lock bar start to dent. This went on about three weeks before I posted pictures on the forum (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/790605-Is-it-normal-for-a-lockbar-to-dent-like-this) to ask if it was normal and find out why it happens, since my other Sebenza wasn't like that (and still isn't despite being my most used--only this one out of five CRKs I own had it occur with the rest flawless). The detent was still very difficult (still is to this day), but by then it had become smoother after it.

As for how the knife was used, at that point it had cut one cardboard box and only paper otherwise, no abuse, no hard use, barely any use at all.

I would not believe that any of these lock bars could dent like they do without abuse if I hadn't gone through it, so I do not blame anyone who doesn't believe it could. Titanium may be softer than the steel of the blade, but that doesn't make it soft. It isn't foam or plastic; it's metal. Moreover, I have no idea what could have caused it. That is part of why I posted the thread and why I contacted CRK, but neither came up with a possible answer. With only two possible causes given (according to CR, 20k+ openings and abusive flicking), it is irrational to believe it to be some unknown cause based on what some people you don't know post on the Internet, though that's not to say it's irrational to believe there is possibly another cause beyond the two. The only argument I have is do you believe I'd buy a knife when it first came out, my most expensive knife at the time, only to see how it would do in a battle to the death with a hammer, seeing which would give in first? Or if it's something innate in how I treat knives, how come my other CRKs aren't like that, even the one older than it (I posted pictures of it in post 41 of the thread linked before)? I cannot say it wasn't my fault because I do not know the cause, but I can say it wasn't from 20k openings or abusive openings.

I want to add when I spoke to Mr. Reeve he was pleasant enough on the phone with me. He made it clear he believed it was my fault--he was a bit accusatory--but he did not insult or berate me or raise his voice. I was impressed at the time to get a reply to my email right away and then even spoke with the namesake of the company. How often does that happen?
 
@kreole

I have had a few NIB sebenza's myself and I concur that the tightness of the lock is INSANE and takes quite a while to break in. Even for someone who has handled CRK's for a while it is hard to not close the knife before clearing the lock bar just because the detent is so strong (at least on a new one) and perhaps that is the problem. Banging the blade tang on the softer Ti lock bar is more than enough to eat it up after enough times.

I guess the only way to find out is to see what Chris has to say when he updates us on (since he mentioned he would on his post about flicking).

Thanks for sharing your story, in the back of my mind I was thinking it might not even be abuse and had to do with closing it prematurely due to the strong detent. I hope it doesn't sound like I am accusing you of doing it, it might be something else in your case. I am just putting up my thoughts incase others have similar thoughts. I mean even I admit having been defeated by the NIB strength of the lock bar. I'm actually scared to break in new sebs after looking at so many pictures of busted lock bars that I have to take all my finger strength to consciously clear the lock bar before I close it.
 
And now I'm at a point with this company that I don't believe they're going to rectify this problem so I'd just be wasting money on postage. I'd rather spend that on making $100 selling a broken sebenza.

Have you sent this knife in ?

I can't keep up with all that is in this thread, so I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound like it from the above post.

If you haven't, send the knife in to CRK if you have a problem with the lock not working as it should. Postage doesn't cost much at all.
 
Hey, guess who won 2012 manufacturing quality award........ Again!
I think we should rename it the Chris Reeve Award.
 
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