CBSA seized a legal knife.

ElectroTheRobot said:
I apologize in advance if this thread is posted in the wrong subforum, or if I missed some relevant advice. I created an account primarily to get some input regarding my current situation. I suspect that there are many similar tales of woe to be found on this forum, so I thought some of you might have some advice to offer.

I'm Canadian, living in Canada, and over the past couple of years I have become a casual collector of knives (mostly folding knives) and multitools. Over the course of that period, I have ordered several folding knives from China (including several Ganzo knives), and have never had an issue, as I only imported knives which I knew to be legal in Canada.

Recently, while awaiting delivery of my third Ganzo (model G7533), and a Sanrenmu (model 7023 LUI) which I had ordered from Gearbest, I recieved a letter from the CBSA (Canadian Border Services Agency informing be that both knives had been set aside for inspection, implying that border agents had reason to believe that one or both knives were prohibited weapons. The letter went on to state that a decision would be made within 4-6 weeks.

I was a little surprised by this letter, but knowing that both knives were regular, thumb-stud folders, I assumed that they would recognize the legality of both blades and release them after further inspection.

I guess that, as many of you have already surmised, I was being naive. Today, I received a follow-up letter, informing me that the Ganzo knife (the Sanrenmu was not mentioned) is a centrifugal opening blade, and is therefore a prohibited weapon. Now, I KNOW that this is not the case. I research every knife I buy before ordering, and there are plenty of videos and reviews out there which clearly show that this knife is absolutely not designed to be centrifugal, and that it functions in the same manner as any regular folding blade that can be purchased at Wal-Mart or Canadian tire, or any number of domestic retailers. It is possible, I suppose, that a loose screw could result in the knife being opened in this manner, but I have heard zero reports of Ganzos having this issue, and their quality control generally seems to be quite high. Also, the same "defect" could be true of nearly any folder.

I, of course, have the opportunity to appeal the decision of the CBSA in writing, but I'm wondering if there's any reasonable means of doing so. I have no access to the evidence that they posses, so all I can do is point out the same reasoning I've stated above. This seems like an incredibly unfair situation, and despite the fact that I know I have little chance of winning, I feel pretty angry about the idea of the CBSA simply being able to seize legally bought goods when I am at such a disadvantage in defending my case.

Any help is appreciated.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
Im in Australia, so I hear ya mate!
I once had a small single blade slipjoint seized as a "prohibited weapon".
If Canada is anything like here, "customs" are underpaid, undertrained, and answer to nobody. So everything is open to individual interpretation. Grit your teeth, and do like the big drug dealers do, try again, anything gets through some of the time! Just keep an eye on your profit/ loss graph and adjust the street price accordingly.
 
somniloquist said:
Canadian law guy here. The definition that the Canadian International Trade Tribunal of "centrifugal knife" is quite a bit broader than how it has been interpreted in the courts in a criminal law context. You can see a summary of the decision which sets out the definition here: https://cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/cn-ad/cn18-01-eng.html It is this decision that the CBSA are acting upon when they seize folders at the border.

Basically, any knife that can be opened with one hand is likely to be seized by the CBSA if they inspect it. Also, if you plan to appeal the decision, you will need to understand administrative law in Canada. Common sense definitions, dictionary definitions, hurt feelings or whatever else are irrelevant to making a winning case here. If you don't have a lawyer arguing on your behalf, your chances of success are probably low.

Now I'm obviously a knife guy and think this decision is garbage. However, reading through the comments here is a bit amusing. The brand/country of manufacture/potentially IP infringing design of a folder is irrelevant to the CBSA seizing it as a prohibited weapon. Also, the operation of the CITT and its decisions have nothing to do with politics or the government of the day. The decisions are made by bureaucrats who interpret complex laws and regulations relating to the importation of goods into Canada. Obviously, I think they have it wrong here but my personal feelings don't change anything.

The only way this decision will get changed is if you argue through through the first instance and appeal steps with the CBSA/CITT and then end up at the Federal Court of Appeal. I'm guessing that would take about 3-5 years (and you can guess how I know). You can speak to your MP but honestly, they aren't going to care. You are a person suspected of importing a prohibited weapon and you want them to go to bat for you? Unlikely.

Anyway, this whole thing leaves me feeling cynical but the way around this problem is to only buy folders from dealers shipping within Canada. I wish I had something more hopeful to say but that's basically it.
Click to expand...

I've looked at the CBSA wording and it's ambiguous enough to cause problems, if you bring in a folding knife over the border from a US dealer. Where I can see obvious issues with ordering automatics, regular flippers would be hit or miss for ordering. If they do confiscate it, you're best option is to cut your losses, since by disputing it you go from having your order confiscated to now opening yourself up to criminal prosecution.

My rule is to only bring in fixed blades from other countries, something I'm only doing if I can't source it from a Canadian dealer anyways. There are plenty of outstanding knife dealers in Canada, many of them close by. I have and can domestically purchase plenty of assisted opening folders and flipping folders that would likely be something that could easily get snagged by customs, which is strange. The problem is that there isn't exactly a huge knife owner lobby in Canada and the laws are open to interpretation.

A few times, I've ordered knives from Walmart, because they're sometimes the only place that have that specific knife, and then Walmart Canada turns around orders it from a US supplier. It hasn't been a problem yet.
 
The Grendels said:
I've looked at the CBSA wording and it's ambiguous enough to cause problems, if you bring in a folding knife over the border from a US dealer. Where I can see obvious issues with ordering automatics, regular flippers would be hit or miss for ordering. If they do confiscate it, you're best option is to cut your losses, since by disputing it you go from having your order confiscated to now opening yourself up to criminal prosecution.

My rule is to only bring in fixed blades from other countries, something I'm only doing if I can't source it from a Canadian dealer anyways. There are plenty of outstanding knife dealers in Canada, many of them close by. I have and can domestically purchase plenty of assisted opening folders and flipping folders that would likely be something that could easily get snagged by customs, which is strange. The problem is that there isn't exactly a huge knife owner lobby in Canada and the laws are open to interpretation.

A few times, I've ordered knives from Walmart, because they're sometimes the only place that have that specific knife, and then Walmart Canada turns around orders it from a US supplier. It hasn't been a problem yet.
Click to expand...
I'd say the language is very broad and that broadness is what causes confusion. Also, it relates to the attributes of a specific example of a knife, not a model. It also relies on a specific person carrying out the test, which is not the best. I'm sure some folks on this forum could flick nearly any folder open whereas a non-knife person might not be able to do so.

Also, people that are receiving one hand openers from across the border are just lucky. I'm sure that there aren't enough resources to inspect every package originating from every channel. Know the risks of importing before you try.
 
I didn't go through the whole thread, sorry if this was said already...

For the sake of every Canadian knife enthusiast, I think that you should put as much time as you can into this. The "Kniferights" group could always use another cause to help with.

If everyone takes the stance that their voice means nothing, then nothing will change. Knife Rights may have some better suggestions about who to contact. I agree with you (or the person that mentioned) it's possible and even likely that these confiscated knives are being stolen. In my experience, poorly paid govt. employees will steal everything that's not nailed down.

Nail this down brother, get the names of agents, their supervisors, and file a grievance. Maybe the scoundrels will think twice if someone lodges a complaint specifically against an individual(s).

Make your case. Demand a paper trail of what happened to the item(s). Don't let it go another day if possible.

I don't like some of the negativity regarding assumptions of a dogpile for bringing up any specific knife unless it is a direct violation of a trademark such as copying the maker's logo. Sure, the person that invents a specific locking mechanism is entitled to their intellectual property, but copying a "look" isn't really a thing. One could make an argument every bowie is intellectual theft if that were the CASE (see what I did there?) ; )
 
somniloquist said:
Canadian law guy here. The definition that the Canadian International Trade Tribunal of "centrifugal knife" is quite a bit broader than how it has been interpreted in the courts in a criminal law context. You can see a summary of the decision which sets out the definition here: https://cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/cn-ad/cn18-01-eng.html It is this decision that the CBSA are acting upon when they seize folders at the border.

Basically, any knife that can be opened with one hand is likely to be seized by the CBSA if they inspect it. Also, if you plan to appeal the decision, you will need to understand administrative law in Canada. Common sense definitions, dictionary definitions, hurt feelings or whatever else are irrelevant to making a winning case here. If you don't have a lawyer arguing on your behalf, your chances of success are probably low.

Now I'm obviously a knife guy and think this decision is garbage. However, reading through the comments here is a bit amusing. The brand/country of manufacture/potentially IP infringing design of a folder is irrelevant to the CBSA seizing it as a prohibited weapon. Also, the operation of the CITT and its decisions have nothing to do with politics or the government of the day. The decisions are made by bureaucrats who interpret complex laws and regulations relating to the importation of goods into Canada. Obviously, I think they have it wrong here but my personal feelings don't change anything.

The only way this decision will get changed is if you argue through through the first instance and appeal steps with the CBSA/CITT and then end up at the Federal Court of Appeal. I'm guessing that would take about 3-5 years (and you can guess how I know). You can speak to your MP but honestly, they aren't going to care. You are a person suspected of importing a prohibited weapon and you want them to go to bat for you? Unlikely.

Anyway, this whole thing leaves me feeling cynical but the way around this problem is to only buy folders from dealers shipping within Canada. I wish I had something more hopeful to say but that's basically it.
Click to expand...
Just a FYI, this thread was started and the majority of the comments were made before that CITT ruling. I'd wager that majority of the comments regarding IP and the CBSA were made in jest (I know mine were), as at the time knife manufacturers like Ganzo were rather a hot topic.
 
Gideons said:
Just a FYI, this thread was started and the majority of the comments were made before that CITT ruling. I'd wager that majority of the comments regarding IP and the CBSA were made in jest (I know mine were), as at the time knife manufacturers like Ganzo were rather a hot topic.
Click to expand...
You are correct and I didn't notice the date on the first comment in the thread. Thanks for pointing that out. With that in mind, I'm less clear why they would have seized the folder and on what grounds. Unfortunately, as we all know, things have evolved rather significantly since then.

Also, I was pretty sure that you and others were not being serious with comments about IP and knives. I didn't mean to condescend to anyone and hope I didn't come off that way. I just figured I'd mention that a prohibited weapon seizure was something different, in case someone reading the thread conflated the two issues.

I have noticed a bunch of inaccurate information on this issue here on BF and elsewhere and as a knife guy and someone who knows a little about this area of law I like to try and set the record straight so that the next person who may happen upon my comment can make a slightly more informed decision. It's a confusing and completely unexpected issue! Why would importing a knife from the US that I can buy readily from a Canadian dealer result in it being seized by the CBSA? It makes zero intuitive sense, and yet, is very likely to happen for complicated reasons. I'm hoping that any Canadian knife folks that aren't already aware of this issue take note of it to avoid any very understandable disappointment.
 
ElementalBreakdown said:
I didn't go through the whole thread, sorry if this was said already...

For the sake of every Canadian knife enthusiast, I think that you should put as much time as you can into this. The "Kniferights" group could always use another cause to help with.

If everyone takes the stance that their voice means nothing, then nothing will change. Knife Rights may have some better suggestions about who to contact. I agree with you (or the person that mentioned) it's possible and even likely that these confiscated knives are being stolen. In my experience, poorly paid govt. employees will steal everything that's not nailed down.

Nail this down brother, get the names of agents, their supervisors, and file a grievance. Maybe the scoundrels will think twice if someone lodges a complaint specifically against an individual(s).

Make your case. Demand a paper trail of what happened to the item(s). Don't let it go another day if possible.

I don't like some of the negativity regarding assumptions of a dogpile for bringing up any specific knife unless it is a direct violation of a trademark such as copying the maker's logo. Sure, the person that invents a specific locking mechanism is entitled to their intellectual property, but copying a "look" isn't really a thing. One could make an argument every bowie is intellectual theft if that were the CASE (see what I did there?) ; )
Click to expand...
I totally understand the sentiment here. It feels very unfair to have an item that can readily be bought in a store in Canada be seized for trying to buy it in a store in a different country. Not to mention super frustrating.

However, it may be some comfort (or perhaps zero comfort, who knows) that a seized item must be kept as evidence during the period that all avenues of appeal are exhausted or elapse. No one is running off with your folder because there is a big paper trail for any seizure and the physical knife itself is required for any hearing/appeal that may arise from a seizure. Once you are through all the steps (assuming you lose), it will be destroyed

Also, complaints against the CBSA will not be very easy. They weren't even possible for citizens until NSIRA was formed in 2019. In my view, the best chance of eliminating this problem would be a successful appeal at the Federal Court of Appeal. For that, give yourself about 3-5 years and probably a $40-50k retainer for a decent lawyer. Not an easy hill to climb at all...
 

Knife Rights

kniferights.org kniferights.org

They are USA, but why not encourage a Canadian chapter?
This is total Bullsh*t, we all have a duty to stand up for what's right.

The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who in time of moral crisis preserve their neutrality.
 
The problem, as always, is too many people don't know or don't care...

even if 50k or 100k knife people sign petitions, it's still a drop in the ocean
I have no idea how to get a million+ to sign anything

they have 'optics' at work, making 'strict import laws keep our children safe' - good luck arguing against that kind of rhetoric :(
wish this wasn't the case
 
ElementalBreakdown said:

Knife Rights

kniferights.org kniferights.org

They are USA, but why not encourage a Canadian chapter?
This is total Bullsh*t, we all have a duty to stand up for what's right.

The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who in time of moral crisis preserve their neutrality.
Click to expand...
This has been brought up to Doug Ritter - here his response from an article “I have gotten about a hundred emails and calls from Canadians about this,” noted Doug Ritter, chairman of Knife Rights. “I have offered to help with advice and such based on our experience if they put together a Canadian organization, but I can’t do it for them. Way too much to do just here in the U.S. So, no time, lack of resources, and quite frankly, it wouldn’t be taken well for a U.S. organization to come try and fix Canadian law. Bad idea.”

blademag.com

Knife News Wire 1/17/18 - Knife Industry Reacts to Canada's New Knife Prohibitions

Knifemakers and knife companies in the U.S. and elsewhere are scrambling to address new rules banning the import of most folding knives into Canada.
blademag.com blademag.com
 
Last edited:
That's exactly how I feel. As far as I know, You Canadians have already been largely disarmed, which creates not only the problem of a lack of tools, but a lack of a populace that has any knowledge about the care and feeding of firearms, coupled with a lack of experience. If no one wants to put in the time and work, nothing is going to change.
 
ElementalBreakdown said:
That's exactly how I feel. As far as I know, You Canadians have already been largely disarmed, which creates not only the problem of a lack of tools, but a lack of a populace that has any knowledge about the care and feeding of firearms, coupled with a lack of experience. If no one wants to put in the time and work, nothing is going to change.
Click to expand...
Carrying a knife or any item for self-defence purposes is illegal in Canada, and that will not change anytime soon. So that is a non-starter.. it's not like EMT, Firefighters, police or soldiers are exempt from these importation regulations either. For me, the annoyance isn't that we can't carry double edged daggers (for example) - it's that this importation policy bans pretty much every knife that can be used one handed, and that is simply a practical feature of a tool and not a weapon.
 
Hopefully my Shiro makes it up!

Report: it did and no issues. This is why I like FedEx.
 
Last edited:
I have a basic folding knife held up in customs in Toronto since the 16th. Not a flipper knife or anything. Knife demo on the site I bought it off has the person using 2 hands to open the thing. What are the chances they keep it?
 
Security1 said:
I have a basic folding knife held up in customs in Toronto since the 16th. Not a flipper knife or anything. Knife demo on the site I bought it off has the person using 2 hands to open the thing. What are the chances they keep it?
Click to expand...
I have had a few knifes hang out in customs for a week.

They will definately let you know if it's being confiscated.
 
This is what you’ll get in case of seizure


g9MzbnC.jpg
 
Electro The Robot:

Sorry to hear about your problem.

Move to Texas. You will not only be able to buy about any blade you want, but they are legal to carry too.

Assisted opening or flipper knives with any blade profile is acceptable.

I
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top