I've always thought of myself as a knife user rather than a collector, but lately I've lapsed (degenerated?) into full collector mode. My current drug of choice is the F-S. I've been trying to catch up on all the new research and info that has been published on these knives since I last paid any attention to them twenty years ago. The current prices for some of the more rare versions kind of take your breath away. I remember when there were buckets of these knives in army surplus stores selling for five bucks. Had I but known! Anyone else here with an interest in these? If you want, contact me off-forum and help me feed my habit. Leigh
Fairbairn-Sykes Obsession
- Thread starter wlf
- Start date
I like the F/S dagger... Altho, I actually dont own any currently.
Have handled a few originals, and several re-makes, from cheapies, to some from Case.
And still... never owned one.
Thats a shame.
Always kinda wished someone out there was making a relaly good one, not a collectors item, but just a regular production, using (as much as such a knife can be a using knife) version. Not that I'd ever plan to use it for anything, muchless its intended purpose, I think it would be cool none-the-less. (Even contemplated looking into setting up a small venture to do that myself [in the future], but it never got any further than a few notes in my notebooks.)
I've read that a lot of the various models had problems, some of the ones made for the O.S.S. were very brittle in the blade for example... bad temper, or wrong kind of steel, or both.
Hmm... this gets me wondering... for all those out there who are into the F/S knives... what materials would you use to construct your ultimate F/S dagger, and what pattern would it be, 1st? 2nd? or???
Have handled a few originals, and several re-makes, from cheapies, to some from Case.
And still... never owned one.
Thats a shame.Always kinda wished someone out there was making a relaly good one, not a collectors item, but just a regular production, using (as much as such a knife can be a using knife) version. Not that I'd ever plan to use it for anything, muchless its intended purpose, I think it would be cool none-the-less. (Even contemplated looking into setting up a small venture to do that myself [in the future], but it never got any further than a few notes in my notebooks.)
I've read that a lot of the various models had problems, some of the ones made for the O.S.S. were very brittle in the blade for example... bad temper, or wrong kind of steel, or both.
Hmm... this gets me wondering... for all those out there who are into the F/S knives... what materials would you use to construct your ultimate F/S dagger, and what pattern would it be, 1st? 2nd? or???
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- 227
wlf, satin, you're clearly men after my own heart. Wonderful design, my favourite dagger (and I love daggers above any other type of knife).
wlf, those ones for $5 were pakistan-made things. Amazingly some actually looked quite good if you were lucky. I do have one of each type (the black painted blade, the all-chrome, and the chrome blade/gold handle) of those, a 3/4 size one (stunning piece of workmanship, I'd rate it higher than most SOG daggers in all honesty), a J. Rodgers one (made to 3rd pattern spec - O1 steel blade, alloy handle and guard), a R. Cooper one, a J Nowill one, (again third pattern, this time in all Stainless steel), half a dozen others with no names (various markings, all commercial pieces, two with stinless blades, the others with various carbon non-stainless blades) all 3rd pattern, and a wilkinson sword current repro of the 1st pattern (the best looking of all three). Unfortunately Wilkinson decided to make these with stinaless blades instead of proper high-carbon steel, but other than that they're perfect replicas.
I don't own any of the original war-issue ones (although you can get a 2nd or 3rd pattern (issued, with inspectors mark) for $100-$200 on ebay every so often), just seem to keep buying other knives in between them coming up for auction.
Satin, the J. Rogers one is a proper use one. Made to true WWII military spec, and perfectly usable as long as you don't try to use it outside it's original design. And the "brittleness" wasn't a flaw. They're designed purely for piercing the throat or going through multiple layers of clothing and into the kidneys. The "brittleness" myth was caused by US soldiers being given them and then trying to use them to open beer bottles, carve thier names into tree trunks, and so on.
As for the ultimate F-S dagger, it'd be 1st pattern, Talonite blade, stainless steel handle rather than the somewhat light "white metal" alloy originally used.
wlf, those ones for $5 were pakistan-made things. Amazingly some actually looked quite good if you were lucky. I do have one of each type (the black painted blade, the all-chrome, and the chrome blade/gold handle) of those, a 3/4 size one (stunning piece of workmanship, I'd rate it higher than most SOG daggers in all honesty), a J. Rodgers one (made to 3rd pattern spec - O1 steel blade, alloy handle and guard), a R. Cooper one, a J Nowill one, (again third pattern, this time in all Stainless steel), half a dozen others with no names (various markings, all commercial pieces, two with stinless blades, the others with various carbon non-stainless blades) all 3rd pattern, and a wilkinson sword current repro of the 1st pattern (the best looking of all three). Unfortunately Wilkinson decided to make these with stinaless blades instead of proper high-carbon steel, but other than that they're perfect replicas.
I don't own any of the original war-issue ones (although you can get a 2nd or 3rd pattern (issued, with inspectors mark) for $100-$200 on ebay every so often), just seem to keep buying other knives in between them coming up for auction.
Satin, the J. Rogers one is a proper use one. Made to true WWII military spec, and perfectly usable as long as you don't try to use it outside it's original design. And the "brittleness" wasn't a flaw. They're designed purely for piercing the throat or going through multiple layers of clothing and into the kidneys. The "brittleness" myth was caused by US soldiers being given them and then trying to use them to open beer bottles, carve thier names into tree trunks, and so on.
As for the ultimate F-S dagger, it'd be 1st pattern, Talonite blade, stainless steel handle rather than the somewhat light "white metal" alloy originally used.
Danny,
This will give away my age, but those five dollar F-S knives I was talking about weren't Pakistani but the real thing. This was in the late 1940s and early '50s when Britain shipped tons of them over here to help pay off her war debt. I was a kid then, but already a knive freak, and I remember them well. No one was interested in them very much in those days except a few wise collectors (and of course I wasn't one of them.)
I have a couple of the Wilkinson repro's too, one of the black 3rd patterns and the stainless 1st model with the two inch guard. Beautiful pieces. I recently bought a wartime production, 2nd pattern "beads and ribbed" off the Internet and can't wait for it to get here. I also have a line on a wartime early 2nd pattern with knurled handle, but am running out of cash! Leigh
This will give away my age, but those five dollar F-S knives I was talking about weren't Pakistani but the real thing. This was in the late 1940s and early '50s when Britain shipped tons of them over here to help pay off her war debt. I was a kid then, but already a knive freak, and I remember them well. No one was interested in them very much in those days except a few wise collectors (and of course I wasn't one of them.)
I have a couple of the Wilkinson repro's too, one of the black 3rd patterns and the stainless 1st model with the two inch guard. Beautiful pieces. I recently bought a wartime production, 2nd pattern "beads and ribbed" off the Internet and can't wait for it to get here. I also have a line on a wartime early 2nd pattern with knurled handle, but am running out of cash! Leigh
Thanks for the info ShortGoth (if the last part of your your name is indeed accurate, then we're doubly alike. That is, assuming your usage is ment in the most recent common usage of "Goth".)
My father remembers having Brit. surplus F/S daggers in the "dime store" in Glenwood Springs, Co. where he worked in the late 50's/very early 60's, for about $5 to $10... altho he never got one.
And one of my closer friends (a man a little older than my father) remembers similar from when he was a teenager.
Alas... todays young men (and thus all others) arent as lucky.
If I could learn to grind a dagger worth a d*mn I'd make myself a F/S, since I have a lathe to turn a proper handle... but I'm a dunce at dagger blades, so once I have opportunity its my plan to seek out some already made, or have one made as I'd like it. (Talonite does sound nice SG... something to remember, since I am not sure what would be used to make my ultimate F/S, but I'd probably go for a 1st pattern tho, as I like the asthetics of them the most.)
My father remembers having Brit. surplus F/S daggers in the "dime store" in Glenwood Springs, Co. where he worked in the late 50's/very early 60's, for about $5 to $10... altho he never got one.
And one of my closer friends (a man a little older than my father) remembers similar from when he was a teenager.
Alas... todays young men (and thus all others) arent as lucky.
If I could learn to grind a dagger worth a d*mn I'd make myself a F/S, since I have a lathe to turn a proper handle... but I'm a dunce at dagger blades, so once I have opportunity its my plan to seek out some already made, or have one made as I'd like it. (Talonite does sound nice SG... something to remember, since I am not sure what would be used to make my ultimate F/S, but I'd probably go for a 1st pattern tho, as I like the asthetics of them the most.)
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- Nov 13, 2001
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- 378
No, the first batch (or three) made in the USA were trash. Didn't help that there were issued to Marines (when in doubt, hit harder!) Any OSS guys with them would have looked for other uses besides killing. When one carries a minimun of gear the gear must do the maximum of work.
Type "0" was drawing board only. The original plan was for a 3" S-guard. But that was changed to two inches for easier carry.
Type 1 was limited pre-production. They quickly saw no point to a 2" S guard. This is the least useful of the patterns.
Type 2 had 2" straight guard and "grooved" handle as with the above.
Type 3 was as type 2 but with a "ridged" handle. This was changed to reduce cost. Ironically, this handle prooved to be the most secure grip.
I'll take a Type "0" with a type 3 handle anyday.
The "white metal" is a zinc alloy. Thse knives were often mis-labeled as being "all-steel." They were in fact all-metal.
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I just bought a Sheffeild, and while it isn't the pinnacle of knife construction, I can't help but love the classic design. It's an unabashed killing knife, nothing utilitarian about it. It reminds me of the Thompson subgun or the 1911. Simple, effective, and stamped out in huge numbers. I love them. I think I'll make a leg rig for it. Pictures when I'm done.
Robert,
I've been running across some interesting pictures of WW2 sheaths that were made for the F-S. I read some where that Fairbairn (or maybe it was Sykes) liked to wear his in an upside-down shoulder sheath rig that sounds a little like the old Berns Martin "Lightning" holster for snub nosed revolvers. I also saw a "sleeve-scabbard" which was issued to Canadian Para's. Leigh
I've been running across some interesting pictures of WW2 sheaths that were made for the F-S. I read some where that Fairbairn (or maybe it was Sykes) liked to wear his in an upside-down shoulder sheath rig that sounds a little like the old Berns Martin "Lightning" holster for snub nosed revolvers. I also saw a "sleeve-scabbard" which was issued to Canadian Para's. Leigh
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- Aug 28, 1999
- Messages
- 519
If I'm not mistaken the shoulder rig is pictured in The First Commando Knives by Yeaton - which is an excellent book, and an important primary sourcework.
Fransisp and satin,
You are definitely right about Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, and O'Neil being a big part of the F-S mystique. In Special Forces back in the early 60's, Applegate's book, Kill or Get Killed, was used as a training manual and floated around the barracks. According to Paladin Press, the book is in current use by the Marines. Applegate's (Fairbairn's, Syke's) ideas on combat/fighting knife use and design influenced me greatly. Applegate had a big impact on handgun use and design too. One of my favorite handguns of all time is the S&W Centennial model, and Applegate was influential in convincing S&W to produce it. Of the four men you mention, O'Neil is still the least known and remains a rather shadowy personality in my mind. Leigh
You are definitely right about Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, and O'Neil being a big part of the F-S mystique. In Special Forces back in the early 60's, Applegate's book, Kill or Get Killed, was used as a training manual and floated around the barracks. According to Paladin Press, the book is in current use by the Marines. Applegate's (Fairbairn's, Syke's) ideas on combat/fighting knife use and design influenced me greatly. Applegate had a big impact on handgun use and design too. One of my favorite handguns of all time is the S&W Centennial model, and Applegate was influential in convincing S&W to produce it. Of the four men you mention, O'Neil is still the least known and remains a rather shadowy personality in my mind. Leigh
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Wow Clint, you obviously know your stuff. thanks for clearing up exactly what that metal is, I just call it "white metal", seems similar to the "white metal" used for Games Workshop models I used to paint, never knew what it was.
To be honest, I wouldn't know about the US-made ones, had no idea there was a problem with the manufacture of them. I know that like all daggers they're simple in design but difficult to make (like satin, I've tried dagger grinds and failed)
As for the patterns used, I said my perfect one would be first pattern for aesthetic reasons, it wouldn't need the more grippable ribbed handle or the less awkward sraight guard as I wouldn't be using it much anyway. How often do I need to take out sentries after all?
To be honest, I wouldn't know about the US-made ones, had no idea there was a problem with the manufacture of them. I know that like all daggers they're simple in design but difficult to make (like satin, I've tried dagger grinds and failed)
As for the patterns used, I said my perfect one would be first pattern for aesthetic reasons, it wouldn't need the more grippable ribbed handle or the less awkward sraight guard as I wouldn't be using it much anyway. How often do I need to take out sentries after all?
Does anyone have any information/photos/dimensions on the slightly shorter "Baby" F-S daggers that the OSS had? Just curious.
Speaking of "rolling your own" I have been thinking of trying to source a bunged up old enfield bayonet and grind my own Shanghai prototype...
Clinton
Speaking of "rolling your own" I have been thinking of trying to source a bunged up old enfield bayonet and grind my own Shanghai prototype...
Clinton
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- 519
wlf, here's some info on O'Neill: http://www.gutterfighting.org/ONeil.html
O'Neill as an influence on the V42 knife design:
http://pub104.ezboard.com/fclosecombat82274frm2.showMessage?topicID=10.topic
Other O'Neill stuff:
http://pub104.ezboard.com/fclosecombat82274frm1.showMessage?topicID=454.topic
http://pub104.ezboard.com/fclosecombat82274frm2.showMessage?topicID=41.topic
http://pub104.ezboard.com/fclosecombat82274frm2.showMessage?topicID=37.topic
Also, Col. Aaron Bank, U.S.A. Special Forces trained directly under Fairbairn in Scotland as part of the OSS Jedburg teams. I think he was also a Close Combat instructor. I'm sure there were many others. I would be interested in hearing more information on this from Special Forces alumni.
O'Neill as an influence on the V42 knife design:
http://pub104.ezboard.com/fclosecombat82274frm2.showMessage?topicID=10.topic
Other O'Neill stuff:
http://pub104.ezboard.com/fclosecombat82274frm1.showMessage?topicID=454.topic
http://pub104.ezboard.com/fclosecombat82274frm2.showMessage?topicID=41.topic
http://pub104.ezboard.com/fclosecombat82274frm2.showMessage?topicID=37.topic
Also, Col. Aaron Bank, U.S.A. Special Forces trained directly under Fairbairn in Scotland as part of the OSS Jedburg teams. I think he was also a Close Combat instructor. I'm sure there were many others. I would be interested in hearing more information on this from Special Forces alumni.
James,
Thanks for the great reading material on O'Neil and the others. I poured over all of it with interest and learned a lot.
That V-42 has always been a rare collector's item, but as late as the 1950s there were still a few of the knives in the hands of the troops. A friend of mine, Gunboat Smith, told me in the early '60s that five or six years earlier he had owned one while stationed with the 10th SF Group in Germany. Smitty told me that a kidney attack techique was being taught at that time which involved assisting the insertion of the knife by bumping the butt of the knife with your hip or reaching up with the right leg and kneeing it in. Smitty told me that the pointed skull crusher made this impossible, so he traded the knife for BOTTLE OF WHISKEY! These babies are selling now in the $3000 to $6000 range.
Aaron Bank is still alive you know. He is scheduled to attend the big Special Forces 50th birthday party that is part of this year's Special Forces Association reunion at Bragg. While with the OSS, Bank jumped three times into occupied Europe and once into Indo China. Bank is very old, and in poor health, but if you want any answers to specific questions you could probably still get the info directly from him. Leigh
Thanks for the great reading material on O'Neil and the others. I poured over all of it with interest and learned a lot.
That V-42 has always been a rare collector's item, but as late as the 1950s there were still a few of the knives in the hands of the troops. A friend of mine, Gunboat Smith, told me in the early '60s that five or six years earlier he had owned one while stationed with the 10th SF Group in Germany. Smitty told me that a kidney attack techique was being taught at that time which involved assisting the insertion of the knife by bumping the butt of the knife with your hip or reaching up with the right leg and kneeing it in. Smitty told me that the pointed skull crusher made this impossible, so he traded the knife for BOTTLE OF WHISKEY! These babies are selling now in the $3000 to $6000 range.
Aaron Bank is still alive you know. He is scheduled to attend the big Special Forces 50th birthday party that is part of this year's Special Forces Association reunion at Bragg. While with the OSS, Bank jumped three times into occupied Europe and once into Indo China. Bank is very old, and in poor health, but if you want any answers to specific questions you could probably still get the info directly from him. Leigh
Clinton, Some of my issues of FK have some stuff on the mini-F/S... I'm not at home right now (have some FK issues with me, not the right ones tho ) but when I get home this evening, I will look and see if I can find the articles in my jumbled magazine/book stack, and get back to you about what they say in there.
) but when I get home this evening, I will look and see if I can find the articles in my jumbled magazine/book stack, and get back to you about what they say in there.
I too love these knives. I have just started collecting even though I have been buying knives all my life, I suppose I never thought of myself as a knife collector. I bought a WW2 issue F-S made by J Nowill and Sons about 22 years ago. It cost me 30 bucks Australian. I am sure I would get much more for it now. They truly are a beautiful and mean design. A knife thats meant for one type of business only. Check ou the Australian Knife Collectors website, I dont have the address. You will see a picture of the Australian issue variant used in WW2. They were made here in Australia and issued to our special forces personnel.