first try at a butterfly sheath

vilePossum said:
well, this is my first try at a butterfly sheath (my new edc needed a sheath), and as usual i learned quite a bit from it.









a couple of things:

- i am not satisfied with my work with the stitching awl. didn't get the hang on it this first time. i'll have to see if it improves over time. currently i am more satisfied with armitage's way of creating a faux saddle stich in round holes.
- the tiger thread is great! really, it's just worlds apart from what i used up til now. 0.8mm tiger thread and 001 john james needles (those suckers are pointy for stitching needles)
- applying 2 coats of bag kote over the coloured tooling and then putting the antique past on with a toothbrush worked reasonably well. it shows the best at the outer border of the green. sealed it with another layer of bag kote.
- i need to be a bit more generous with space. the sheath was almost too tight at the throat, i had to wet it on the inside an leave the knife in over night (wrapped the handle in saran wrap).
- next time i won't skive the liner. seems unnecessary to me. also made it harder to glue the pieces/more work to grind flat afterwards.
- how do you guys avoid the "stretch" marks when punching your stitching holes? are my awls not sharp enough, or did the colour not penetrate deep enough?

overall i am reasonably satisfied for a first try. oh, one more thing... there has to be a better way than blocking with finish to make dual/multi coloured leather pieces. i tried a brush this time, but i messed up anyways and wasn't satisfied at all with the eveness of the saturation. how do you guys do it? anybody tried frog tape?
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Florian, I apologize if some of this has been covered (in a hurry at the moment).

The first thing I notice is the cut of the leather at the junction of the bend, and the start of the welt. The end of the cut should have a punched hole. To do this, fold your leather over with the welt in place and measure the width of the 3 pieces of leather. This will give you the size of hole punch that you should use. I use either the exact size, or just slightly smaller. A hole punched at the end of any cut in leather will help to keep it from tearing.

If the above doesn't make sense I can take a pic of a mock up to show you what I mean.

Do you have a drill press?

What about an overstitcher wheel kit?

These two tools will help you mark your stitching spacing and make nice holes. I can help with the correct needles for punching your holes and the overstitcher kit.

Glad to hear you like the thread. It really is excellent stuff. The needles are Harness needles, right? I don't find mine to be any sharper than any of the other brands I've tried, but they can be dulled if necessary.

I can help with a proper skiver. I don't use the one I bought as I've been using the head knife instead. A butterfly should definitely have the welt skived in my opinion. A proper tool will definitely help! :)

I'm not sure what you mean about the stretch marks. If the leather is puckering out on the back after you make your holes you can take something flat and rub them down. Additionally, if you use the drill (needle) press and overstitcher, the holes will look much better by running the wheel over the holes before and after you stitch. I have a feeling the press, overstitcher and groover will make a big difference.

My process for stitching-

Groove front

Wet the groove lightly

Run overstitcher on the groove to mark spacing

"Drill" the holes with the chucked needle

Use overstitcher to push holes down on backside

Groove back

Hand sew

Use overstitcher to go over the stitches

Let me know if any of this doesn't make sense and I'll try to clarify.

Edit- okay, I see that you have an overstitcher. Disregard anything that's already been covered. :)
 
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Hey Anthony, no problem, and yes, it makes sense. I will try that with the hole punch right on the next one. Cool.
I have the overstitcher und usually use it. Grins. Also have the groover, working on the drill press. Didn't think of running the overstitcher over the thread again. Nice.
 
Like elof, I drill my holes, it works best for me and that is what I will always do.

I mark my hole locations with a pricking iron similar to the one above but mine only marks three holes at once, makes it much easier to go around curves. The wheels are fine and good but two problems in my world: They leave such a fine mark that I and my old/bad eyes cant pick them out. #2 run off, infuriating and always seems to happen at the wrong moment. The pricking fork cures all this and is my choice.

Do not, and I cant say this enough, use your pricking fork for punching holes. I broke a few in the old days before I got educated in my stupidity in the use of the tool. Late 80's, it was a confusing time enough as it was. :p

When hand stitching, always groove front and back. This settles the thread in a slight trench and looks so much more professional when done its really really worth the trouble. Try stitching without any groove and see what I mean, it sits on top of the leather and does not look good at all.

Take the above for what it is, what I learned from people making sheaths and working leather for longer than I have been alive in most cases. In other cases are very accomplished in their craft, not necessarily sheath making. I distilled all the info I've been given through the years and made my own changes and improvements through the years.

One thing I do ask of the forum in general. DO NOT disparage anyone for doing their work differently than yours. Its not necessarily wrong, its simply different. Just because I dont use a machine, that dont make it wrong. Just because I use an awl, that dont make it silly. Just because I drill my stitching holes, I aint doing anything wrong! Just different.

Now that said, always be open to new and different methods. It might improve your work, or make life easier. If it ends up not working for you, that doesn't make it wrong, it simply doesn't work for you.

If you chime in how you do your work, and someone else chimes in with how they do it differently, its not a shot at your methods its simply another way to do it. Dont get your shorts in a wad over it. There is NO one way to do anything, period. Taking it personal does nothing but start an argument.

Dont get em started on finishes, now that can cause a war! :p
 
Dwayne, that's a good point about the wheel skipping out of the groove. This has happened to me more than once.

Here's an example of where it happened.

q3jHLoz.jpg


Fortunately it was just a practice sheath from a long time ago, but it is slightly upsetting. Thanks for the tip on using the pricking iron for marking. If I can find one that matches my 5 stitch per inch wheel I'll pick one up.
Do you use a wheel after stitching?
 
i think nigel armitage mentioned in his video that there seems to be 2 sorts of pricking irons often confusingly named the same. one for just marking the spots and making it easier for your awl to hit the right spot, and the second one to punch all the way trough. in his comparison video he mentions it a few times.
as for the overstitcher, yes, it is bothersome when it runs off... and sometimes i get the feeling that i did some kind of strange movement that affects the spacing.

my trouble with the grooves is to get front and back to align... but maybe i am taking the wrong approach, and i should grove and drill/punch the holes first and then align during glueing (assuming i have measured at least somewhat close to correctly).

and of course there are often several ways to go about things. like i said, i wouldn't even know whether atom wax and finish is overkill, or if u should skip the wax when using heatsfoot oil/compound. i am also pretty sure most people don't use edge kote for slickening the flesh side. but so far it seems to work well and adds some protection against wear to the inside of the sheath.
 
Anthony, the overstitch wheel is just that, and over stitch wheel. Over stitches, ;) Good, I assume for marking stitch lengths, but not for me. I do use it for getting the wax and trash out of the stitches before using the bone folder to make them sit flat. But not every time. "extra tool" Not crucial but nice to have.

possum, always groove the top, especially for getting your stitches straight. Never on the back first. The reason for using any hole making tool in the drill press is the assurance that the hole will go straight, a perfect 90 degrees. Sometimes the tool will wander in the leather stacks. This can be one of way too may reasons to go to here in the time I have.

On the back, you can realign the holes either by connecting them with the groover, or by using your awl and making a new hole closer to the line. Yes, I do this anytime I have a wandering drill bit. Straight stitching front and back are far more important than a couple of stray holes are are so easy to mask, or ignore.

Never drill the holes independent of each layer, always make your stitching holes through a bonded stack. So many issues to making holes through 3 or more separate layers.

Ah the finish. Atom wax makes a good top finish, but alone it is not very water resistant. Its why I am now putting a good beeswax/oil finish on before the atom wax if necessary. Some customers prefer the beeswax/oil finish over all, its a nice satin finish that is not at all shiny. the addition of atom wax makes for a nice mellow shine on top of that. I rarely use neatsfoot oil so I'll leave that to those that do. One huge warning, NEVER use the neatsfoot compound, its full of petroleum distillates that are really nasty to leather. I'll never understand why the makers even thought it was a good idea.

Edge kote, never used it, never will, its a short cut to most of us. Not worth the effort. Gum Trag and lots of sanding is much better for the end result. Sorry, its my view of that product, I cant claim for anyone else.
 
VP,
I put my wax or oil finish on at the very end.
First reason, 2-3 times I needed to apply dye after stitching because after the sheath was dry the color looked splotchy.
Second reason, I usually have some excess material at the edges which I cut/sand off exposing undyed core/flesh side that will need the dye. That black sheath, I've sanded at the end with 600 grit and honestly, when I started burnishing there was almost no difference in how it looked before and after burnishing.

And another small trick I picked up here, after making the holes, use the butt end of your overstitcher to gently flatten the pushed out leather, then run the wheel to press the openings of the holes and leather between them down.
 
sheathmaker said:
Since I haven't seen the Rowe sheath I can't be sure, but if it came out of Kenny's shop I'm almost sure it was machine stitched on a heavy stitcher. He has a very complete mechanized shop and while hand stitching is not out if the question, it is very unlikely.

Secondly, the Black sheath you posted above is really a fine looking piece and the construction design of the sheath fits that knife perfectly.

Paul
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Paul,
Thank you for complement. This is the sheath that I was lining with kangaroo leather.

The Rowe sheath had a stingray inlay, the holes were much bigger than the thread used, and even after all those years the holes were round. My understanding is that punched holes should at least partly close up.
 
Oh, I get how the overstitcher works, just wondered if you use both, the iron, and the OS together.

There certainly are irons made to mark, and some made to pierce using a mallet. I'd imagine you could use the latter for spacing too.

The key for me to get a nice groove on the back is to first have a square edge at the welt. Square edge + drill press + using something (I use the end of the nylon bone folder) to flatten the backside holes= nearly perfect every time.

Before I learned the above I'd use a ruler instead of the groover guide to "connect the dots". This works but it's easier to just get everything right in the first place.

Use your edger after grooving the back too. You don't need the corners cut off before grooving.

Example- edging, dyeing and burnishing all after grooving, drilling, matting and backside grooving.

fzZnZ32.jpg
 
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elof_alv, The Stingray inlay makes the hand stitching much more plausible. Stingray is tough on machines and needles. If you use a needle a little too big for your thread a machine stitched piece will look as you describe also, but if the Stingray was involved where it was stitched then probably hand work.


You….keep up the good work!

Paul
 
first of all, thank you to all the people participating in this thread.
once again there is just such a wealth of information here. thanks!
so people tend to either use wax, wax/oil concotion or a finish? always used atom wax then bag kote so far, but wouldn't mind skipping on one of either. also will have to try the neatsfoot/wax comination.
it's cool to learn so many different things from so many people.
 
Garys recent thread about him switching from Atom Wax got me back to using a wax/oil mix again. In my experiments since then I've been using the wax/oil only, or before an application of Atom Wax for a nice warm shine.
 
VP, your finish looks good in person. I may give the old atom wax some play yet.

Dwayne, do you find that oil/wax does unwanted things to your elaborate dye work? For my camo dye it would be nice to have a spray finish. Still like wax/oil best though. I just touched up my first sheath and was happy to see that the original wax finish was very durable. For some reason I'd used Tan-Kote on the dangler and it'd held up okay, but there was some crazing on the bends. Fortunately Tan-Kote can be removed.

Finish is definitely one area where I end up going around and around!
 
Anthony, thanks for asking about the various special dyes that I do! I forgot to add that.

Actually the process is being enhanced by the oil/wax instead of interfering, much to my surprise and delight. The oil penetrates and makes the colors richer, and since it does not dry solid like the atom wax alone it allows the dye (especially oil dye) to mellow, and its those smooth transitions I look for that cloudy appearance.

When I go for the atom wax to finish, it further enhances the color and shine. The oil/wax alone does not give that nice deep mellow shine. The combination of the two is what I've been looking for all this time, and its about time! I've been doing the fade dye process since about 2004.

So yea, I am sold on the two together when a customer wants that nice shine, but when they dont (an awful lot of them do not) the wax/oil works very well and is so easy to keep up by them, and smells wonderful as a bonus.

No sprays for me, I am super sensitive to stuff in the air and dont want to make more trouble for myself. Lacquer being the most offensive to my sinuses, so no not that. No acrylics as they just dont hold up to hard use, the "crazing" you speaking of. I've refinished a lot of sheaths and leather gear for people who got that coated stuff. A few camp outs or expeditions, a couple wet downs, or damp conditions, hot vehicles, and bingo, bad stuff.

Not for me, might be fine and dandy for others, and that is plenty fine.

The reason I know lacquer is a no no for me was when I made a set of lacquered leather armor for a friend of mine. That stuff really stiffens up the pieces you want nice and hard. Subsequent layers sprayed on actually melt into the last layer built and eventually produce an almost plastic stiffness. I was sick for a week, and did all of the spraying outdoors.
 
alright, time to give the oil/wax mix another try this time without turpentine :D although after some weeks the smell actually has disappeared on the actual piece :D
 
leatherman said:
Anthony, thanks for asking about the various special dyes that I do! I forgot to add that.

Actually the process is being enhanced by the oil/wax instead of interfering, much to my surprise and delight. The oil penetrates and makes the colors richer, and since it does not dry solid like the atom wax alone it allows the dye (especially oil dye) to mellow, and its those smooth transitions I look for that cloudy appearance.

When I go for the atom wax to finish, it further enhances the color and shine. The oil/wax alone does not give that nice deep mellow shine. The combination of the two is what I've been looking for all this time, and its about time! I've been doing the fade dye process since about 2004.

So yea, I am sold on the two together when a customer wants that nice shine, but when they dont (an awful lot of them do not) the wax/oil works very well and is so easy to keep up by them, and smells wonderful as a bonus.

No sprays for me, I am super sensitive to stuff in the air and dont want to make more trouble for myself. Lacquer being the most offensive to my sinuses, so no not that. No acrylics as they just dont hold up to hard use, the "crazing" you speaking of. I've refinished a lot of sheaths and leather gear for people who got that coated stuff. A few camp outs or expeditions, a couple wet downs, or damp conditions, hot vehicles, and bingo, bad stuff.

Not for me, might be fine and dandy for others, and that is plenty fine.

The reason I know lacquer is a no no for me was when I made a set of lacquered leather armor for a friend of mine. That stuff really stiffens up the pieces you want nice and hard. Subsequent layers sprayed on actually melt into the last layer built and eventually produce an almost plastic stiffness. I was sick for a week, and did all of the spraying outdoors.
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The thanks are all from my end, after all, your dyeing thread and an old one on finishes were all I needed to try both and I couldn't be more pleased.

Sorry to hear about your sensitivity. I had bad asthma when I was a kid and it's no fun. I have a respirator for grinding steel, phenolics and for nasty sprays.

Care to share your finish recipe? I understand if not.

Here's a camo job I did. I think it was 4 colors total.

Fyy3DSe.jpg


Only thing is that I had to be fairly careful in order to not smear the colors, but it may not have been a bad look in retrospect.

vilePossum said:
alright, time to give the oil/wax mix another try this time without turpentine :D although after some weeks the smell actually has disappeared on the actual piece :D
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Try a double boiler, or rig one up. I use a small pot with beeswax in it sitting in another pot of boiling water. Once the wax is melted coconut oil will emulsify nicely. I had a series of pictures that went over the entire process, but I cannot find them. The goal was a solid mixture at room temperature, but one that melted at a much lower temp than the wax alone.

I'll try to take some pics of what I have in a jar. Smells great and works even better. No disrespect to other finishes. Like most of us, I like what works for me, but others have their favorites and that's as it should be. :)
 
Anthony,
Do you apply the coconut oil/wax onto the leather or you submerge the leather in?

I dipped (read soaked) a few sheaths in melted beeswax. The first one I tried was a disaster, it was a dodgy piece of leather with cross cuts on the flesh side, and the wax got too hot... The thing shrank nearly 20% and got warped in every direction... That was supposed to my first sheath...
The next few I was a lot more carefull with wax, I put a smaller deep rectangular baking tray into a large one with water, and got it to a temperature that there was a thin 'float' in the wax and then I soaked my sheaths in until bubbles stopped appearing. There was a little bit of shrinkage, but I put the knives in while wax was still warm so the leather cooled down on knives, rather than empty. One of the sheaths is almost like made from kydex, I guess those are waterproof for real, and I can even use sheathed knives as club...
 
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