Four day hiking trip and no knives allowed?

It's not like you can't survive a group backpacking trip without a knife. I went on a several day backpacking trip with my brother in the mountains around Telluride in 2002 during which I lost my knife. I really didn't miss it except emotionally for the rest of the trip.

However, the issue is not if you are likely to use the knife. The issue is how bad things will become if you really need it but don't have it. I have definitely been in situations where there was no substitutue for a knife.

So I guess this entire thread comes down to risk assessment. As far as I'm concerned, an adult can choose to go into the wilderness naked. But I have yet to read a listing of the ten essentials that does not mention a knife of some sort.
 
asfried2 said:
However, the issue is not if you are likely to use the knife. The issue is how bad things will become if you really need it but don't have it.
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This is an important evolutionary principle as well. Life forms do not adapt to good conditions. They adapt to the harshest conditions in their environment, because that's what will kill them. Once they survive the worst, what's left is no challenge, and will not force further change.

But that killer winter or long drought doesn't come every year, so it's easy to forget why certain behaviors or physiological adaptations are critical.

"Better to have and not need than need and not have."
 
nephildevil said:
who got anything against big rambo "survival" knives!?
DSCN1469.jpg

hehe, i switched to the F1 by now^^
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A friend of mine has the exact same knife. I never figured out why anyone would want to use a knife as a grappling hook, but you never know when you have to scale a wall while you are in the field. :)
 
Since you've already put in the money, you might as well go. (As if that weren't clear.) I would suggest you stick to easily concealable knives, as in case of a pack shakedown as mentioned, you wouldn't be able to hide some of the larger ones. But lucky you, my freshman orientation consisted of sitting in the quad and talking to other freshmen and playing Jenga.

I have a penchant for not quite following rules, and if they told me not to take knives with me, I'd almost guarantee I'd be carrying a 4" Spyderco IWB and a Victorinox Soldier. I'm sure you're already quite set on doing the same thing. I'm never without a knife, on or off campus, and I would expect the same of any other forumite here.

Enjoy your trip and remember to be discreet. You don't need to start college on the wrong foot.
 
I would carry at least a SAK and I would also bring your basic dittybag of fire starter, band aids etc. I would also call them and ask it in this fashion, "I have a couple of back packs, and I know what I would usually bring on a short pack trip, but need to know what other things you are going to have for me to carry in." this might let you know that they are planning on giving each person a divided up load. You might be carrying in the sugar, someone else, the beans, etc, and they may in fact have a preselected amount for each person to carry.


I used to work at a camp as a counselor for a few weeks each summer, usually our group was city kids with no experience and we would walk then in the first day and make one big loop, the camp was at the end of a leg of the trail that was only a few hundred yards from the parking lot, but because of how we walked them in, they figured they were MILES from nowhere. Had they known, I am pretty sure most would have bailed out the first niight. I would bury a GPS in my bag and just see where they take you....
 
You dont have to let them search your pack or anything else, this is not grade school & you will not be camping on school grounds, you have rights as an adult, that you dont as a child, thay can not just search you!
 
Your course is probably based upon Outward Bound courses and a knife is not needed that much.
Most of the food is measured our and in plastic bags - nothing to cut except carrots.
Then there is a solo for a night and they are afraid of someone killing themselves. The group leaders usually check in on you without you knowing.
Have fun and realize it is all about group dynamics.
 
dextersp1 said:
Your course is probably based upon Outward Bound courses and a knife is not needed that much.
Most of the food is measured our and in plastic bags - nothing to cut except carrots.
Then there is a solo for a night and they are afraid of someone killing themselves. The group leaders usually check in on you without you knowing.
Have fun and realize it is all about group dynamics.
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Probably right. But, I will just put it out there that "not needing a knife much" is not the same as "will not need it at all, ever, ever, ever". Lots of folks get separated from their groups. In such a situation, a knife might be pretty important. I have been thinking about this issue since this thread started, and I think in 30 years of backpacking I have actually used (not played around with) my knife a handful of times. On two of those occasions, not having the knife might have meant my life. So an adult decision might be to leave the knife behind but promise yourself not to cry if (god forbid) you finds your life leaking away for the lack of said knife.
 
dextersp1 said:
Your course is probably based upon Outward Bound courses and a knife is not needed that much.
Most of the food is measured our and in plastic bags - nothing to cut except carrots.
Then there is a solo for a night and they are afraid of someone killing themselves. The group leaders usually check in on you without you knowing.
Have fun and realize it is all about group dynamics.
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The Sheriff's Office said in a press release that Santry was waiting for another hiker before she got lost, but Outward Bound Wilderness officials are not convinced that is true.
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One can become lost on Outward Bound activities.
 
A few comments (mostly playing devil's advocate):

1. Hiking in the woods is a lot better than most orientation activities. You'll form stronger, more interesting friendships on the trail than sitting in an auditorium listening to speeches. Therefore, this seems like a pretty worthwhile activity that I'd go on.

2. I'd ask for clarification on the knife policy (which you did). It's likely that the no-knife part of the list is the wilderness center covering their legal behind and/or trying to keep inexperienced sheeple from bringing machettes. If the college is rabidly no-knife, better to find out now and maybe look at transfering.

3. Unless this is a primitive surivial experience (unlikely), take the 10 essentials and your basic survival kit, including $$. If the poo hits the fan (also unlikely), you'll be there to save the day. I'd include a sheeple-friendly knife. SAK is a great option. Or an Opinel, spyderco dragonfly, etc.

4. Keep an open mind. Even it it's the worst-case cult scenario, you can observe your tormentors and learn something. You can learn about leading a group from watching screw-ups like the "no-knife" item on the list. Your brain is your most important survival tool.

You're an adult. You can weigh the circumstances vs. the likely penalties and come up with a workable decision. Good luck and have fun on the trip!

Aside - I'm glad I found someone who agrees with me that the official BSA policy doesn't ban sheath knives!
 
Marzola,

Okay - I wasn't going to read this whole thread, but I did.

Once again, we have a battle of opinions over what is "mandatory" versus "nice to have".....and there will never be any agreement on BF about hiking with blades.

However, of all the very informed opinions shared, by very knowledgeable posters (whom I respect) - you need to reread post #112 by Coote. Then, read it again - he speaks the truth, you can get by without a blade.

Have fun and bring a condom(s) - this is a college trip, right?:D

D
 
I would gather information on hiking essentials from the major organizations (Mountaineers, Boy Scouts, Search and Rescue) and turn their butts in for putting students in a position of risk. You don't need to center on knives at all. The way to deal with PC types is you use their own weapons against them-- expose them for the idiots that they are. If the college administrators don't pick up on it, pass it along to the newspaper.

Here's you first lesson in college: they might have an advanced degree, but that is no guaranty they have the slightest bit of common sense. Remember, the people running these things majored in things like Leisure Studies. Go the the college course catalog and check the educational background of the instructors. You just might find they were English majors. It is prefectly acceptable to gauge the qualifications of those you will study with. It is amazing how poorly run some colleges are and you need to be an aware consumer just as you would buying a car, etc. :mad:
 
Diligence, you point is taken.

Do you take this point? He can do without food. Only a few days (teaches self-denial and "need" vs. "want"). First aid kit? Can do without. Rain gear? Bug repellant? Personal meds? Any gear?

What is prudent? Sure, on a blade forum, the line will be drawn well east of "no knife." But find a book on going into the wilderness that does not call for some knife. (Not to mention all the other "essential" gear not on the personal "bring with" list.)

Until then, remember the bumper sticker about Murphy's toilet habits. :D
 
Marzola said:
Hi, i've been reading these forums for a while and figured i'd make my first post.

So i'm entering my freshmen year of college and am doing a pre-orientation hiking trip. It is four days of hiking in Western Connecticut and Massachusetts (i believe we are hiking part of the Appalachian Trail). I'll be in a group of about ten other students and a person from a wilderness school in CT (great hollow wilderness school). I am quite looking forward to this trip as a way to meet some of my new classmates and hopefully do some quality hiking (I even got a new backpack for this trip).

So I got the list of equipment to bring about a week ago (a very basic list with out many details and somewhat lacking). On the list of what not to bring it said no knives of any type. Like many people here, I always EDC a good folder and feel naked with out it, and I wouldn't even dream of going on a long hiking trip with out at least a SAK.

So I figured I would ask some people with more experience than I have. Should I go knifeless? Or should I bring a SAK or even my EDC (a kabar MULE), or forget i even read that and pack my RAT 5 (inside my backpack until i actually need it)?

Another odd thing is the list said no watches, which was happeed to be in bold and underlined. Any idea why they would say that?
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Marzola,
This post has spawned some amazing topics for discussion...many of them following different tangents related to your original post...and that is great.

But I think there is unfortunately a relatively simple answer to your question that many of us here in this post, including myself, don't want to admit. I think from reading many of the posts here, that you paid $500 for this trip, it is offered through your university, and it is NOT required. If these points are indeed true, then I think you are in a position where you must abide by the rules of the organization you agreed to go with on this adventure, or not go. These are your only two options.

I know, I know...how could I possibly suggest that you knuckle-under to "the man" who is depriving your basic rights to carry a knife? I agree that this is a right we all have and should fight to protect. I hope I make that very clear.

However, you also have the "right" to choose to contract with this organization or not. I haven't read anywhere where you indicate that anyone is making you go on this trip. If so, then I think the rules change.

Also, you have already been made aware of this group's policy, regardless of how ridiculous it is. I don't think the right thing to do is to feign ignorance. It's an option of course, but is it realy the ethical one? I know, I know...someone will argue that it isn't "ethical" of this group not to let you bring a knife. I agree, but the fact appears to be that you had a choice to sign up for this trip or not. I think you absolutely have the right to ask for your money back after hearing that you can't bring a knife. I would think that if the group refused to give you a refund based on the fact that information was witheld at the time that you agreed to contract with this group (which you did by senidng them money), then you can, ethicallly, argue that you will bring whatever you feel necessary.

So, sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but perhaps a good life-lesson is in following the rules when you agree to follow a group's rules. You still have a choice; go and follow the rules, look for clarification and back out if they will not allow you to bring a knife, or don't go. The very fact that you posted this question in the first place tells me that you are at least somewhat concerned about doing what is right or you probably wouldn't have bothered to ask in the first place. Good for you. Have a great time, if you go. Hold your head high if you decide not to go.

-Tim
 
The major point of contention, Timblade, is that he was informed of the rules only after contracting the trip. I think this would send up a red flag for most people, be it a hiking trip, a car rental, or whatever. At the time the contract is established, I can understand omitting terms that are so obvious as to be tedious. To require that participants deliberately leave behind equipment that any reasonable person would describe as prudent is wholly inappropriate and unprofessional IMO. The organization voided their own contract for service when they changed the perceived mood of the trip to one of utter dependence on the logistical staff. That's not a 'hiking trip' or a 'guided hike'. Had he signed off on the rules before putting up the payment, this discussion wouldn't have become six pages long.

Another of life's lessons is that once your money's gone into someone's till, you'll have to fight tooth and nail to get any of it back. The organization seems to be in a position where the individual has no recourse or holdback, save for court proceedings which would quickly outprice the initial loss.

I doubt very highly that this is subversive at all, just poor planning and management. Even still, it's like waterskiing without a PFD: it's fun as long as nothing goes wrong, but there's still this nagging feeling of being uncomfortably naked somehow...

It would be really interesting to get someone from the organization on here - after Marzola is back home.....
 
The organization seems to be in a position where the individual has no recourse or holdback, save for court proceedings which would quickly outprice the initial loss.
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Did I miss the part where the OP attempted to get his $ back and was refused?

Or is this conjecture?

I'm confused.
 
If it were I, the first thing I'd have done when I received "the rules," would have been to get in touch with the Administrator and asked "Why am I forbidden to bring a knife??"

Depending on the logic, or illogic of the answer, I'd have either asked for my money to be returned... or, then chosen to go on the trip and adhere to the rules.

Just my take on it.

L.W.
 
Ditto. I'd have contacted someone in charge of the trip and let them know I could not abide by the equipment list and let them know I'd be needing my money back. From a wilderness camping POV it's irrational.
 
Tohatchi NM said:
Aside - I'm glad I found someone who agrees with me that the official BSA policy doesn't ban sheath knives!
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The BSA in the San Gabriel Valley/LA area still discourages the carry of anything other than small slipjoints. Whatever the actual bylaws say, they will put enough pressure on you until you carry what they're comfortable with, nothing more.
 
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