Grinding... Zero to Hero

[AVigil]

... if you have variable speed, go slowly. Use marker to markup the blade and eyeball after each pass - the shiny parts are where you grouind it off.

This,

Sharp belts, slower speeds and to cut down on mistakes and as mentioned use a sharpie to see what and were you are at.

You are building a pyramid when grinding, you start at the top and work your way toward the base with small passes, lay down a grind line following the edge, then lay down another directly under it. Keep moving the pyramid to the base.

When the your grind meets the top line and the bottom line on both sides the angle is the same on both sides.

 

[kuraki]

Do you think there's any danger inherent to using a work rest? I have a concern (maybe valid, may be not) about the pinch point created between the rest and belt. I keep my belt close to the rest when profiling, so most likely not an issue. Just curious on your thoughts on the matter. Thanks.

I don't think it's dangerous when grinding bevels if you keep your workrest within .060" of the belt, but I can tell you it gets really dangerous, really quick when you're grinding vertically on the flats, tip down, with your one hand right near the top roller and your tip flirting with the gap between the work rest and the belt. I really only use my workrest as a hand rest when grinding bevels, but when I grind vertically I get it right out of there.

 

[LINESIX]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using any mechanical advantage you can find to make a knife.
If it makes a better, more accurate knife - I use it.
Why do you think snipers use a rest? Would you rather they shoot off-hand to prove their "skills"?
I will always use a tool rest to create the base line profile and angles of my grinds. After those have been established I will switch over to hand-held grinding.
But I get everything dialed in at the beginning with every advantage I can use.

Thanks for your reply Karl. If I was a sniper I would absolutely prefer having a rest. Any advantage I could use for that matter. But it's different to me because that's a life or death situation and not (hopefully) a casual hobby. lol. More than likely, if blowing a plunge line meant death, or if I was making knives as a means to feed my family, I would have no problem using jigs in the slightest. Since we're speaking in analogies, I think of it more like using steroids to gain muscle. Taking them does make you gain size at a quicker rate, but take the 'roids away and that muscle rapidly turns to flab. AKA a waste of time and life imo.

That being said, earlier I said I had nothing against people that do use jigs, it's just not my thing. I didn't mean to come off like I think jigs are below me or anything like that, a lot of really good craftsman use them regularly... but I personally wouldn't get the same satisfaction using guides that I would making a tasty bevel with my own acquired technique. Besides, I'd rather make scrap steel and maximize my time learning the art than spend my time producing blades and still have to go back and learn the feel of freehand grinding anyway. Again, it's just personal preference. Subject to change though. lol.

I agree taller grinds in thicker stock on taller blades is about the easiest flat grind to learn, because of the increased surface area you have to index on the platen. I also agree with Geoff hollow grinding was (and still is for me) easier to do consistently, I think for a number of reasons (belts stay cooler, never chatter or flutter, easier to feel when you're in the radius for me than when you're on the flat).

The most challenging grind for me to do freehand, correctly, on the first or second try, is a short, flat bevel like a swedge or scandi grind.

I have a 10 inch contact wheel that I've been holding off to use until I got the flat grind down. Do you recommend rookies to give hollow grinding a go? Everything that I've read says to learn the flat platen first. Like so many things with making knives, everybody has different opinions on the best way to go about things. I love it though because it keeps things interesting.

My version of that is to use normal sized stock and fine belts like 400 grit, or if you have variable speed, go slowly

Use marker to markup the blade and eyeball after each pass - the shiny parts are where you grouind it off.

I'll give that a try. I have a variable speed Pheer 454, so that's helpful advice. Thank you.

 

[DevinT]

I move my work rest in until it throws a couple of sparks, grind edge up. I've ground thousands of blades this way with no problem. I like a narrow work rest.

Hoss

 

[LINESIX]

The main part I still screw up at times is cleaning up the plunges. For some reason that in particular is far easier for me on a wheel. I almost never have issues there with hollow grinds, but at least once per batch I'll bump a flat grind over the edge, scratching up the ricasso and making a deep 2" line. Thats generally followed by much profanity and tossing the blade in the scrap bin.

Yes! No doubt about it, plunge lines are the devil for me. People on YouTube make crisp plunge's look so freakin' easy! It's by far my biggest struggle right now. It's funny that before I started learning about the process of making knives, I didn't really notice plunge lines. I have a new-found appreciation for them to say the least.

 

[LINESIX]

This,

Sharp belts, slower speeds and to cut down on mistakes and as mentioned use a sharpie to see what and were you are at.

You are building a pyramid when grinding, you start at the top and work your way toward the base with small passes, lay down a grind line following the edge, then lay down another directly under it. Keep moving the pyramid to the base.

When the your grind meets the top line and the bottom line on both sides the angle is the same on both sides.

That's a good way to put it. Gives me something to visualize while I'm grinding away.

 

[kuraki]

I have a 10 inch contact wheel that I've been holding off to use until I got the flat grind down. Do you recommend rookies to give hollow grinding a go? Everything that I've read says to learn the flat platen first. Like so many things with making knives, everybody has different opinions on the best way to go about things. I love it though because it keeps things interesting.

I don't know why you'd necessarily want to begin with one or the other. I held off on even attempting hollow grinds because I assumed it was harder. Then I finally tried and personally found it quite a bit easier. So I wouldn't avoid it just because of what you'd read. If you want a hollow grind, do a hollow grind, if you want a flat grind, do a flat grind. As for learning, I don't think it really matters which you do, because they're different and have their own quirks.

Edit to add: In fact, when I think about it, you should start with hollow. Because the fastest way to make a flat grind is to start with a hollow grind down to a thick edge and then connect the dots on your platen.

 

[LINESIX]

Do you think there's any danger inherent to using a work rest? I have a concern (maybe valid, may be not) about the pinch point created between the rest and belt. I keep my belt close to the rest when profiling, so most likely not an issue. Just curious on your thoughts on the matter. Thanks.

The main thing I avoid with anything stationary near any moving belt is to not wear gloves and roll up my sleeves. Also if you have a ring, avoid wearing it around the grinder. Though unlikely, it's still possible for it to catch and take your finger with it.

 

[LINESIX]

I don't know why you'd necessarily want to begin with one or the other. I held off on even attempting hollow grinds because I assumed it was harder. Then I finally tried and personally found it quite a bit easier. So I wouldn't avoid it just because of what you'd read. If you want a hollow grind, do a hollow grind, if you want a flat grind, do a flat grind. As for learning, I don't think it really matters which you do, because they're different and have their own quirks.

Edit to add: In fact, when I think about it, you should start with hollow. Because the fastest way to make a flat grind is to start with a hollow grind down to a thick edge and then connect the dots on your platen.

Using a hollow grind to make a flat grind, eh? That's brilliant. It's not even noon and I've already learned like 15 things about grinding. I feel like some of you guys have forgotten more about knife making than I know right now.

 

[Britt_Askew]

For me I started getting the feel at around 100 blades. There should not be enough room for your blade to fit between the platen and workrest

 

[Geoff Flato]

The other thing I'd say is to take your time, and stop to work on something else for a while if you start getting tired or otherwise out of it.
Chasing mistakes can be a bad idea as well. If something starts going wrong, I'll generally put the blade aside and work on something else for a bit. Come back after even 10-15 minutes, put on a fresh belt, and you can usually fix it. Just plowing ahead with it usually leads to filling the scrap bucket some more.

 

[Natlek]

Thanks for your reply Karl. If I was a sniper I would absolutely prefer having a rest. Any advantage I could use for that matter. But it's different to me because that's a life or death situation and not (hopefully) a casual hobby. lol. More than likely, if blowing a plunge line meant death, or if I was making knives as a means to feed my family, I would have no problem using jigs in the slightest. Since we're speaking in analogies, I think of it more like using steroids to gain muscle. Taking them does make you gain size at a quicker rate, but take the 'roids away and that muscle rapidly turns to flab. AKA a waste of time and life imo.

That being said, earlier I said I had nothing against people that do use jigs, it's just not my thing. I didn't mean to come off like I think jigs are below me or anything like that, a lot of really good craftsman use them regularly... but I personally wouldn't get the same satisfaction using guides that I would making a tasty bevel with my own acquired technique. Besides, I'd rather make scrap steel and maximize my time learning the art than spend my time producing blades and still have to go back and learn the feel of freehand grinding anyway. Again, it's just personal preference. Subject to change though. lol.



I have a 10 inch contact wheel that I've been holding off to use until I got the flat grind down. Do you recommend rookies to give hollow grinding a go? Everything that I've read says to learn the flat platen first. Like so many things with making knives, everybody has different opinions on the best way to go about things. I love it though because it keeps things interesting.



I'll give that a try. I have a variable speed Pheer 454, so that's helpful advice. Thank you.

With your time and steel you can do as you want But ,did you ever think that you could never master this technique? What then ? Can you show us some pictures of blade you already grind ? If you think that with jig it's easy , I challenge you to grind one and show to us I think you will be surprised and see that it is not easy even with jig . I'm sorry, I do not have any advice to give you around grinding , I'm a beginner too... only to be persistent . .. . .

 

[Kevin McGovern]

I don't think it's dangerous when grinding bevels if you keep your workrest within .060" of the belt, but I can tell you it gets really dangerous, really quick when you're grinding vertically on the flats, tip down, with your one hand right near the top roller and your tip flirting with the gap between the work rest and the belt. I really only use my workrest as a hand rest when grinding bevels, but when I grind vertically I get it right out of there.

Yes. I was grinding flats on my platen vertically when the magnet let go. Blade went right between the belt and rest and into the catch bucket. I had too big a gap, but just remove the rest for that process now.

 

[Natlek]

Hey everyone, quick question:

How long did it take you guys to get your grind skills? I've been trying to get a good flat ground bevel for over a month. Probably made and ruined like 8 knife attempts so far... I'd rather not use a jig so I can build up my own skills. I'd rather pump out scrap than make a decent blade by "cheating." No offense to those of you that do use jigs for your bevels. It's just not my thing.

Thanks.

Actually , I do have some advice for you . .. .Making a knife is not just grinding , other skills are needed to finish knive . Like HT , hand sanding , gluing and shape handle ,work on wood ,make bolster , make sheath , sharpen the knive . . . .hidden tang knive , different material for scale ..... My advice is to not throw what you call ruined knive but to finish them to the end .If it can not be a knife, make a scalpel, shorten blade, grind blade thinner .......there is many possibility to make useful tool with handle on it from ruined knive That way, at the same time you learn all the skills needed for good knive .

 

[rybobales]

I don't know if a jig is cheating. I personally wish i could find or make one that worked for me! The hardest part really is learning that it takes time. There are blades i grind the left side near perfect and the right side is awful. The next blade is the opposite. Then times when i get them both just right and get greedy and forget to slow down and jack it all up.

Personally i'd tell anyone to get a jig, getting consistent results will be far more rewarding then being able to tell a bunch of folks in the internet you can freehand grind. And not a single person who doesn't make knives will ever ask you that question.

 

[kuraki]

If you get inconsistent grinds with a jig, check how square your platen is to your belt. If they're not in line, it will cause you grief in the plunges. Also how flat your workrest is. If it tips a little it can impact your bevel angle and throw one side off from the other.

 

[coldsteelburns]

Actually , I do have some advice for you . .. .Making a knife is not just grinding , other skills are needed to finish knive . Like HT , hand sanding , gluing and shape handle ,work on wood ,make bolster , make sheath , sharpen the knive . . . .hidden tang knive , different material for scale ..... My advice is to not throw what you call ruined knive but to finish them to the end .If it can not be a knife, make a scalpel, shorten blade, grind blade thinner .......there is many possibility to make useful tool with handle on it from ruined knive That way, at the same time you learn all the skills needed for good knive .

^^^ This is excellent advise

For probably the first of couple years when I started out making knives, I pretty much tossed blades with even slightly wavy grinds, or had an edge than just barely curved into the scrap 'bin'. I was (and still am) way too much of a perfectionist for my abilities at the time. For various reasons there were also times that I went a little while without working on anything. Basically, whenever I finished one good knife to my standards, by the time I got to my next one that was up to my "standards", I'd have to pretty much re-learn and re-teach myself how to do a lot of the other steps involved.

I can't believe how many times I had to refresh myself on the proper order to drill matching pin holes through handle scales lol. That's just one quick example.

Try your best to finish every knife to the end, especially if the issue is only a cosmetic one Even if you aren't all the happy with the end result, the experience from learning to fix mistakes and learning the other necessary skills along the way will make up for that 10 fold. This is what I would do differently if I knew what I know now, when I first started out.

~Paul
My YT Channel
Lsubslimed
... (It's been a few years since my last upload)

 

[golfer1]

I'm by no means an accomplished knife maker, my platen has about a 3/8" inset so there is an actual ledge for the blade to set on both left and right sides. This makes grinding with the sharp edge down safe.
I would suggest also that many knife makers have learned the hard way to fix booboo's without loosing the entire blade. That may be the actual difference between a great knife maker and the next step down.
My last thought is just go for it. Don't hold back, work on that knife now until it gets so tiny you have to start another.

 

[Mitchell Knives]

I think it probably took me 4 - 6 months of practice to really learn how to grind.

If someone had nothing else to do but practice grinding all day, I imagine you could get good in a month or so.

I learned to grind freehand, but would be open to using a jig if I found one that worked.

I don't particularly care how the blade is produced; I just want a quality product.

 

[LINESIX]

With your time and steel you can do as you want But ,did you ever think that you could never master this technique? What then ? Can you show us some pictures of blade you already grind ? If you think that with jig it's easy , I challenge you to grind one and show to us I think you will be surprised and see that it is not easy even with jig . I'm sorry, I do not have any advice to give you around grinding , I'm a beginner too... only to be persistent . .. . .

I haven't given thought to the possibility of never being able to freehand grind. That mindset is a recipe for failure in my experience. I can get some pictures to put up when I go to the shop tomorrow. I'm not going to lie, they're hideous. But it's a learning process so I'll be open to suggestions and advice.

I don't know if a jig is cheating. I personally wish i could find or make one that worked for me! The hardest part really is learning that it takes time. There are blades i grind the left side near perfect and the right side is awful. The next blade is the opposite. Then times when i get them both just right and get greedy and forget to slow down and jack it all up.

Personally i'd tell anyone to get a jig, getting consistent results will be far more rewarding then being able to tell a bunch of folks in the internet you can freehand grind. And not a single person who doesn't make knives will ever ask you that question.

I'm not wanting to freehand for bragging rights. It's just my personal preference. Except for myself, I don't think anybody really cares if I use a jig or not.