Japanese White Steels vs. 1095?

C

cm_bushman

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Oct 22, 2012
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With kitchen knives especially, the Japanese paper steels are always hyped to be superior due to their tighter tolerances and purity over ANSI steels like 1095 and W1.

I know Shirogami steels have varying amounts of carbon (with Shirogami 3 being the closest on paper) and a bit less manganese and other elements like sulfur than 1095 per spec, but does this really affect its use in your experience? I assume these steels have similar HT processes, so at the same hardness, have you noticed big differences in your knives? The tolerances (from zknives) seem to be huge for 1095 and W1, with the latter allowing a 100% difference in carbon alone. In comparison, the White steels seem to allow for less than 10% in either direction. If you buy from a reputable supplier, of course, this affect can be lessened, with Aldo quoting the following for his 1095: Carbon:.99/ Mn: .42/ Si: .22.

So guys, especially makers, how would you compare these two groups of steels? Is there a major difference, all other things being equal?
 
As you stated the specs for Hitachi steels are stricter and going by the numbers the more expensive steels are a higher quality product. In use however, speaking just for my self I would have a hard time noticing a difference when using knives made of them. The biggest differences I notice in knives has to do with blade shape, thickness, grind, heat treat, differences in handles, etc. I have a white steel gyuto which is sharper and holds an edge longer than most of my other knives, but then again I do not have an identical knife made of 1095 with an impeccable heat treat, so it is impossible to say if the differences are because of the steel used to make it.
 
I've only used 1095 and do not own any (other than outdoor fixed), but own 2 knives in white steel (konosuke fujiyama) and it is the best steel I have used (other than honyaki steel, which is VERY expensive).
External thin at the edge and holds it very well.

1095 is good, but I would need a similar knife to make a comparison, though my prediction is white Japanese steel is superior.
 
HwangJino said:
I've only used 1095 and do not own any (other than outdoor fixed), but own 2 knives in white steel (konosuke fujiyama) and it is the best steel I have used (other than honyaki steel, which is VERY expensive).
External thin at the edge and holds it very well.

1095 is good, but I would need a similar knife to make a comparison, though my prediction is white Japanese steel is superior.
Click to expand...

I see, I am also just assuming that the white steel would be better in absolute terms for a few reasons, notably the tighter tolerances, higher carbon, and the lower level of manganese, which would give fine harder ability in the thin sections used for kitchen knives while allowing for some more distinct Hamon lines, which are always nice.

I am very interested in this "honyaki" steel you mentioned, as I always thought that the term referred to a process of making a blade, specifically using just one alloy as opposed to kasumi in which alloys of different hardness are layered together. Is there a specific steel that you are referring to here that is used to make superior honyaki blades?

On another note, I have also been looking at Super Blue, and though it is always compared to W2, it seems that the alloy is very similar to O1 as well, aside from more tungsten and carbon in SB and more Molybendeum in O1. Do you guys believe they would perform similarly? I know the lower carbon content decreases the usable hardness of O1 to about 63-64HRc, but it seems that there are few blades offered much beyond that level (at least at a reasonable price).

I am also curious about kigami, or yellow paper steel. I have heard it is simply a less-pure, supposedly cheaper alternative to shirogami, though looking at the composition, the specs are only off of white steel by a few tenths a a percent and it is much cleaner overall than the 10xx offerings. Any experience with yellow paper steel?
 
I don't know much about metallurgy, but high carbon always cuts smoother and stays sharper longer, but has to be wiped often.

What I hear is that honyaki is a high carbon steel and they spend extra time (compared to kasumi or hongasumi) hammering out impurities, getting a more homogenous steel.

I've used a masamoto honyaki slicer and it was so smooth there was very little resistance compared to my super sharp slicer.

I've never used yellow paper steel. But always like trying new stuff.
 
The carbon range on W1 is specified with the order. If you ask for 1% carbon, you'll get within +- 0.05% or so. It is not meant to mean if you order 0.8% you could get 0.6% to 1.0%. The impurity levels for White steels are very low. I would think W1 would be next and 1095 last. However, modern steel making is very good at making very pure steels in high quantity. You could get 1095 with lower impurity levels than the others, it's just not required.
 
Honyaki refers to a blade made of a single piece of high carbon steel, in contrast to kasumi which is a layer of low carbon welded to a layer of high carbon steel. Yellow paper is the grade below white, the level of impurities allowed is a bit more.
 
Me2 has the right idea on W1- this is a "class" of steel, and is consistent in composition save for the carbon content, which is specified when ordered. When people say they made a knife from W1 it doesn't actually tell you very much at all about it as you could make a good chopper from the low end and a good sashimi knife from the high end of the C content. 1.3% C W1 is as close as I can see to White #1 you can get with AISI steels. O1 is more similar than most to the Hitachi Blue #2 perhaps, but not the other Blue steels because they have a higher C content. F-series tool steels are similar in some ways (tungsten) and often high carbon content as well if you can find them, but good luck doing so! I've only come across a few pieces of it in files that we've had analyzed and have never found any for sale, which is a shame as it seems like W and high C would be ideal for knives. It seems like the real ticket is heat treatment, especially in the high-C range W1. It's all pretty basic stuff, but there are so many options for setting up the cementite and grain structure that you can really make it completely different steels with shifts in heat treatment processes.
 
I would really like to see a head-to-head comparison of 1095/W1 with maximum carbon and Shirogami 1/2 to see what kind of real difference there is. You could use the same geometry and even a very similar heat-treatment protocol to reach similar (preferably 63HRc+) hardness I'm guessing.

Along those lines, I see many lower-priced Japanese knives with White 1 or 2, and many say they are hardened to 60-61 HRc. I know that Shirogami is hardenable to ~66-67HRc, and that in many cases is used in knives at a hardness around 63-65HRc. I also know that in my experience, short of customs, other low-alloy hypereuctoid steels like 1095 and W1 are usually only hardened to around 58-60HRc, or even lower. In fact, I have a couple of Forgecraft and Old Hickory butcher knives that I am sure are a good bit lower than that. I know the knives are made with different philosophies and differing uses in mind, but it still leaves a large gap that makes comparison difficult.

So, my question is, at slightly lower (but still relatively high) hardness of 60-62HRc, would the differences between 1095/W1 and Shirogami be noticeable? If so, would they be more noticeable at higher or lower hardness?
 
1095 in particular is often left rather soft, relative to it's potential, due to a widespread perception that harder steels are harder to sharpen. I have read of some that is not fit for knives as it came from the mill. Additional heat treatment was necessary to correct the issues.
 
I'm guessing that a gyuto made in 1095 will bend and buckle because it is softer if made in the same geometry.

And white steel would be harder to sharpen (for people used to softer steel) once their knife has dulled.
 
There should probably be a distinction between difficult to sharpen and time consuming to sharpen. Poorly treated 420J2 stainless is difficult to sharpen, optimally hardened 52100 at 64-66 HRc is potentially more time consuming, but not difficult.

The 1095 I was speaking of had some carbide segregation issues, and required an additional normalizing cycle and soak to make it usable. 1095 isn't inherently softer or harder than the white steels. When determining the grindability of a steel, the carbides are primarily responsible for the increased wear resistance, along with their size. Aluminum oxide and silicon carbide will cut white #2 at 58 HRc or 64 HRc without much noticeable difference. The amount of steel to be removed, i.e. the edge geometry, will way overshadow the difference in hardness. In 2 identical knives, it might be noticeable by a very experienced sharpener, but identical knives are nearly impossible to make.
 
olpappy said:
Honyaki refers to a blade made of a single piece of high carbon steel, in contrast to kasumi which is a layer of low carbon welded to a layer of high carbon steel. Yellow paper is the grade below white, the level of impurities allowed is a bit more.
Click to expand...

Kasumi means "mist" it does not describe the different layers of metal.
 
White steel is simply put a extra pure carbon steel that can be taken to a very high hardness and has exceptional toughness at high hardness.

1095 is a steel that can be made very hard but is often not. 1095 @ 60+ is pretty impressive though.
 
Not being an expert at Japanese Steels and having only experience (as a bladesmith) in working with American steels, I'd go out on a limb and say that you almost can't even compare them.

Apples and oranges.....really.

The Japanese steels are extremely well made and have significantly higher carbon content that American steels, thus how you process them is quite different too.

Lots of talk about one side of the coin, carbon content, metallurgy etc........
.....and then on the other side is edge geometry!

As a bladesmith and chef knife specialist, I say that, an edge geometry that is extremely well established (which is different things to different people/makers. And different on different styles and types of knives)
>>>>really makes all the difference.
Meaning, you can take an even LOW carbon "simple steel" like 1060 or 1084 and with "proper" edge geometry will perform as good a anyone could hope for within reality.

And finally, there is a reason that most all of the Japanese steels are created in a san-mai construction, and that is due to the high hardenability to balance the fragility if they were not laminated...
....seems like a no-brainer to say here, but worth thinking about in terms of preference of construction-style and usage-choice.

There is room in every kitchen for all of the above in my book, and any working chef barring serious sushi chefs, would agree. Most in the professional culinary world have a variety of all types of knives, and for good reasons too.

-DON:)

P.S. So much talk about this or that steel in the knife world today,...
and ultimately, chef knives clearly are the hardest-working and most demanded-upon knife in the knife world in my book.
I mean, how many other knives have an edge that is called upon to cut something thousands of times a day while being continually battereded against plastic and wood cutting surfaces as a result of this process. Kind of makes you think.
...and finally if you use them, you'll have to sharpen them.
 
Well said Don, proper H/T & geometry are much more important than steel choice.
I can't comprehend why people tend to think that 1095 is inherently softer than anything else. I don't care what the grade/alloy it is or who makes it, steel will only get so hard (approx. HRC-67). What matters is how soft the steel is tempered to and most factory 1095 knives are tempered at or below HRC-58. Custom makers who do their own H/T can draw their blades back to whatever working hardness they (or the customer) choose.
In short, the alloy differences between 1095 & Hitachi white, are so small that at the same hardness and geometry, the end user couldn't tell you which was which in blind usage.
 
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Don Carlos Andrade said:
The Japanese steels are extremely well made and have significantly higher carbon content that American steels, thus how you process them is quite different too.

Lots of talk about one side of the coin, carbon content, metallurgy etc........
.....and then on the other side is edge geometry!

As a bladesmith and chef knife specialist, I say that, an edge geometry that is extremely well established (which is different things to different people/makers. And different on different styles and types of knives)
>>>>really makes all the difference.
Meaning, you can take an even LOW carbon "simple steel" like 1060 or 1084 and with "proper" edge geometry will perform as good a anyone could hope for within reality.
Click to expand...

darrin sanders said:
Well said Don, proper H/T & geometry are much more important than steel choice.
[...]
In short, the alloy differences between 1095 & Hitachi white, are so small that at the same hardness and geometry, the end user couldn't tell you which was which in blind usage.
Click to expand...

Thanks guys, I agree completely that geometry is the most important part of knife design. I have plenty of folders in super steels that won't cut like my kitchen knives in simple carbon steel (American or Japanese) simply due to edge thickness and the secondary grind. Along those same lines, I feel much more comfortable tackling rougher jobs with those thicker grinds.

I do believe steel makes a difference, however, and I am sure there is a difference between .95% and 1.5% carbon steel knives with differing levels of impurities, but I am still skeptical that the difference between the two could be felt by regular use (i.e., by the home-cook or average hunter), all things being equal. I am sure the differences could be detected by sharpening, however, and there is undoubtedly a difference to knife-makers dealing with the steel.
 
With good ht cementite & spheroidal carbide size around 0.5um or slightly smaller. Great ht - mostly fine cementite - can get smaller than 0.2um. Where these #s came from? iirc from various sources + some knife making experiences -> then freely spit out good sounding #s :rolleyes:

http://www.cashenblades.com/metallurgy.html
Nathan Akins said:
Does anyone know the average carbide size of shirogami
Click to expand...
 
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