Japanese White Steels vs. 1095?

bluntcut said:
With good ht cementite & spheroidal carbide size around 0.5um or slightly smaller. Great ht - mostly fine cementite - can get smaller than 0.2um. Where these #s came from? iirc from various sources + some knife making experiences -> then freely spit out good sounding #s :rolleyes:

http://www.cashenblades.com/metallurgy.html
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When I think of carbides in the steel I think of V, Cr, and W as carbide formers. I don't know if what you have listed could be considered as carbides like those that add wear resistance. I would happily be shown otherwise though, I find steel discussion very interesting.
 
Is this really reliable? Thank you for an answer I've asked other people on this forum site and nobody ever answers.

Thanks
Nate
 
Yes (according to my current knowledge) - also probably on the conservative side of sizing. Since reasonable physical ratio of carbide size to super fine grain size about 1 to 10+, which project avg Fe3C be 50nm or smaller (applicable when ht is spot-on).
Nathan Akins said:
Is this really reliable? Thank you for an answer I've asked other people on this forum site and nobody ever answers.

Thanks
Nate
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And to the people wandering why am I asking this. I have been trying to make an ideal woodcarving knife. I have found all that matters is a comfy handle and sharpness. Sharpness branches off at blade geometry and steel. A low angle bites into the wood better Than a high angle and some grinds have less friction when cutting then others. Then steel comes into play. Carbide size and distribution (grain) matters for getting that perfectly sharp edge. Exp, a concrete mix that has car wheel sized rocks in it will not be able to get a sharp edge like a concrete that has pea gravel. So I have been looking for the finest carbide/grained steel out there. Heat treat matter a whole lot though. So if anyone knows what the finest grained/ carbide size steel tree is let me know.

Thank you, Nathan Akins
 
Ppl - correct or blast away...

1xCxx CrC around 0.2-0.5um. O1 has some Cr - most likely be similar size as other 1xCxx steels, some W but low atom count and WC known to be very fine (IDK but guess to be 0.3-0.5um).

Nathan Akins said:
Do you happen to know the avg. carbide sizes of 13c26, 12c27, and o-1 thank you allot for the help:)
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Geometry & sharpening affect performance much more than steel choice. Given optimal everything (geometry, sharpening, handling ergo, cutting technique, ht, etc..) per steel, you might a little different among fine grain & carbide steels apply to wood-working.

Here take a look at a video I shot last night - I am testing 52100 blades to gather ht params for my next chopper
(YT 23 minutes boring-long) http://youtu.be/2uvlNHcK1C8
Yeah, it does come down to ht - since I already have many other variables spec-ed out.

Would these test blades serve as wood-working well? Maybe & maybe not depend on type/style of knife for type of cutting (not too good for digging at high hardness).

Nathan Akins said:
And to the people wandering why am I asking this. I have been trying to make an ideal woodcarving knife. I have found all that matters is a comfy handle and sharpness. Sharpness branches off at blade geometry and steel. A low angle bites into the wood better Than a high angle and some grinds have less friction when cutting then others. Then steel comes into play. Carbide size and distribution (grain) matters for getting that perfectly sharp edge. Exp, a concrete mix that has car wheel sized rocks in it will not be able to get a sharp edge like a concrete that has pea gravel. So I have been looking for the finest carbide/grained steel out there. Heat treat matter a whole lot though. So if anyone knows what the finest grained/ carbide size steel tree is let me know.

Thank you, Nathan Akins
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Great video!

Do you know what the finest grained/carbide sized steel?
If you do, do you know any makers that could make me a knife out of that steel?

Thank you, nathan akins
 
Thanks.

Per this thread - simple carbon white #1 & #2(ultra high) and 10xx (high & mid) carbon are easily to achieve fine grain & fine carbide. but edge retention & performance per tasks involve complicate your choice of steel, hence existence of low-mid-high alloy steels. Take W2 & 52100 & O-1 & A2 & CruV, etc... will have better edge retention than white#1&2 in wood working. Which mean, you will have to try a few steels from a few makers & various ht to find a few that meet or exceed your expectation.

There are many good makers on BF - check http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/754-For-Sale-Fixed-Blades, maybe you find something... If you've particular design/profile in mind, make a thread here with your requirement & pic/drawing - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/871-Wanted-Knifemaker-Craftsman-Related-Services

*** try to save myself from angry OP ***
White steels (#1-2, skip low grade 3) would have better edge retention than 1095 at equiv optimal ht. White has quite a bit more iron carbides but due to small size (analogy: a lot of sand in cement vs 1095 much less sand) doesn't translate into big wear resistance. Now, take CruforgeV a simple carbon with (0.95%Vanadium) added, now it has a lot of super hard (VC) carbide in 0.3-0.5 or larger, which shield the steel matrix from external abrasion/impact/etc.. thus it has much high edge retention for many tasks, where carbide size isn't a liability of tear/pop-out.

If cutting tasks mainly in-hand (or air cut) of vegies & other non abrasive & soft materials, it would be difficult to discern performance difference among white, 1095, s110v, cpm-m4, etc.. steels.

While dedicated blade such as razor, you would want steel with low carbide volume and fine grain and super fine carbide (if any) and actually somewhat ductile.

Nathan Akins said:
Great video!

Do you know what the finest grained/carbide sized steel?
If you do, do you know any makers that could make me a knife out of that steel?

Thank you, nathan akins
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What do steel do you think would cut through wood the easiest. (All variables eliminated) shiro,o1,xxcxx? I have no idea. I just want to find out so I can make or hire some one to make a knife out of it
 
Geometry - less wedging - cuts through wood easiest. Which is not the same thing as whittling or carving where slightly convex geometry helps push thin shaving out of the way.

IMO (from very little wood working experience)- For general purpose small wood working knives - You might like blue#2, w2, 52100, a2, m2 and similar steels. Basically grain size 9 or higher along with low alloy fine carbide steels. Just enough carbide to keep the edge sharp longer - in mainly push cutting through wood.

Nathan Akins said:
What do steel do you think would cut through wood the easiest. (All variables eliminated) shiro,o1,xxcxx? I have no idea. I just want to find out so I can make or hire some one to make a knife out of it
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And does it humanly possible to notice the difference in carbide sizes that small exp. anything under one carbide
 
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I am a numbers guy myself. I like to look at numbers and make comparisons. Carbon content. Alloy percentages. All that stuff. I love it. But you can get so wrapped up in stuff that doesn't really matter in the long run. Steel nuts like myself can get wrapped up in a hurry! But in ALL REALITY. Here is how I see it.

White # 1 vs 1095. Same geometry, same heat treat. Most 99.99% of people using the two would NEVER notice the difference. MAYBE someone who is very familiar and has spent a lifetime studying and perfecting heat treats, geometries, sharpening angles, etc. I doubt that tho.

The difference in Hitachi steels, as has been stated, is they are a more pure (less P and S) steel than most others. And in addition, the batches produced by Hitachi are more consistent than most other steels.

What is the carbide of White steel? It is indeed cementite. Iron and carbon carbide. Technically called dual phase, or pro eutectoid, cementite. It is a very small carbide. sub micron. There is some Si, IIRC, in White steel as well, so there will be some Silicone Carbide as well. Again, a very very small carbide.

What is the carbide of 52100? Chromium carbide, mostly. If heat treatment was taken care of properly, another very small carbide. It CAN be a massive large carbide, ala D2, but in 52100 it is small, like cementite.

I have read that the hardness of the vanadium carbides is very close in hardness to tungsten carbides. These are small carbides as well, maybe Bluntcut has those numbers, but not quite as small as cementite maybe.

There is carbide percentage, and carbide size. And it all boils down to those numbers and their relationship with the binding matrix. Get those carbides too big, or too numerous, and edge stability goes out the window.

I think that is why the finest edges are going to be had with a high carbon, low (overall) carbide steel. And I think there simply must be some sort of happy medium with a given steel, given heat treat, given edge geometry, with carbide size/distribution.
 
I REALLY like the idea of Blue steel. I enjoy using both Blue #2 and 110WCrV5 in the kitchen. Plenty excess carbon, and enough W to form carbides. But I think if I had my pick, I would go with Vanadium. I have heard that there is Vanadium here in the "west", but Tungsten is more abundant in Europe and the "East". I'm not sure if that is entirely accurate.

My ideal steel would be somewhat like this.... 1.3% carbon .3% manganese .2% silicon 3% vanadium. Not sure if that formulation would roll very easily in the mill, but the numbers are SEXY!!!!
 
Right on, Stuart:thumbup:
samuraistuart said:
I am a numbers guy myself. I like to look at numbers and make comparisons. Carbon content. Alloy percentages. All that stuff. I love it. But you can get so wrapped up in stuff that doesn't really matter in the long run. Steel nuts like myself can get wrapped up in a hurry! But in ALL REALITY. Here is how I see it.

White # 1 vs 1095. Same geometry, same heat treat. Most 99.99% of people using the two would NEVER notice the difference. MAYBE someone who is very familiar and has spent a lifetime studying and perfecting heat treats, geometries, sharpening angles, etc. I doubt that tho.

The difference in Hitachi steels, as has been stated, is they are a more pure (less P and S) steel than most others. And in addition, the batches produced by Hitachi are more consistent than most other steels.

What is the carbide of White steel? It is indeed cementite. Iron and carbon carbide. Technically called dual phase, or pro eutectoid, cementite. It is a very small carbide. sub micron. There is some Si, IIRC, in White steel as well, so there will be some Silicone Carbide as well. Again, a very very small carbide.

What is the carbide of 52100? Chromium carbide, mostly. If heat treatment was taken care of properly, another very small carbide. It CAN be a massive large carbide, ala D2, but in 52100 it is small, like cementite.

I have read that the hardness of the vanadium carbides is very close in hardness to tungsten carbides. These are small carbides as well, maybe Bluntcut has those numbers, but not quite as small as cementite maybe.

There is carbide percentage, and carbide size. And it all boils down to those numbers and their relationship with the binding matrix. Get those carbides too big, or too numerous, and edge stability goes out the window.

I think that is why the finest edges are going to be had with a high carbon, low (overall) carbide steel. And I think there simply must be some sort of happy medium with a given steel, given heat treat, given edge geometry, with carbide size/distribution.
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Wow, you like steel with lightning fast shallow hardening + high V aggregation & wicked hamon bonus. I think, V excess of 1% will aggregate/clump together too much. Even PM or spray, VC still in 2+um size.
samuraistuart said:
...
My ideal steel would be somewhat like this.... 1.3% carbon .3% manganese .2% silicon 3% vanadium. Not sure if that formulation would roll very easily in the mill, but the numbers are SEXY!!!!
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For wood working knives, I believe carbide size within 0.6-0.2um range and volume less than 4% (= less than 2% alloy mass) function best. Utmost important is edge stability, next is just enough sweet-size carbide to shield the steel matrix but not overly abundant end up reducing edge-stability. Carbide particle is much harder than martensite matrix, where increase volume = increase density = more carbide to matrix interface = lower bending radius (Young Modulus) = lower toughness = sub par wood working knives :p
 
I don't mind answer your question but keep in mind, I am wandering pretty close toward metallurgy blasting zone (my ignorant might blow up soon :p).

Partial list of steels below based only what I think best alloy volume for wood working with assumption of optimal ht

Non-stainless: 52100, Blue Super (Aogami Super), M2, A2, CruforgeV, (O1 doesn't meet my alloy volume criteria), ..

Stainless: Those ss with Carbon mass % around 0.9 - 1.05, where 1.05 is just a little beyond alloy volume I think best. e.g. cpm154 1.05%C according to my calculation (yup, all mine - dispute is futile - hehehe) it has 37% more alloy than 52100 (0.94%C).

Nathan Akins said:
What steels fall into that little category you just made? O1 what else?
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