Japanese White Steels vs. 1095?

[B34NS]

The strike against D2 for hign end kitchen knife use may be that even when done the Dozier way, it is not going to support that super fine edge like 52100, AEB-L/13C26, W2, the Hitachi steels, 115W8, etc., RWL 34, CPM 154 (to a lesser extent) or even weird harder to work with stuff like CPM 3V or CPM M4. I noticed that after using CPM 154 and later, CTS-XHP, Joel from Cut Brooklyn has now switched over to AEB-L for his stainless knives and 52100 and 1095 for the carbon models. Now why he is charging 75% more for 52100 than 1095 and even why he is using 1095 for his lower priced blades I can't tell you, but there it is. Aldo's 52100 only costs about 5-6% more than his 1095.

I'm gonna be blunt. Joels's new, but not that new.For the price he charges for stock removal any of us could get a handforged piece of 52100 from an ABS mastersmith. It's just spring steel, but the two couldn't be further from each other on the spectrum, they only share the price.

 

[Darrin Sanders]

I'm gonna be blunt. Joels's new, but not that new.For the price he charges for stock removal any of us could get a handforged piece of 52100 from an ABS mastersmith. It's just spring steel, but the two couldn't be further from each other on the spectrum, they only share the price.

Are you saying that handforged 52100 and stock removal 52100 are not in the same spectrum? Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[jdm61]

I'm gonna be blunt. Joels's new, but not that new.For the price he charges for stock removal any of us could get a handforged piece of 52100 from an ABS mastersmith. It's just spring steel, but the two couldn't be further from each other on the spectrum, they only share the price.

Not sure how that is relevant, but yes, you could probably get a forged 52100 chefs knife from an ABS MS for $650. You can also get one of Murray Carters "rough finished" knifes in that price range or even a little less. With that said, a number of the ABS MS the guys who kind specialized in such things, like Bob Kramer, Bill Burke or Michael Rader are going to charge you considerably more. Cut Brooklyn knives are apparently rather popular. My only question was why he charges less for his 1095 line? I find it interesting that he is now making traditional style knives as opposed to just his signature "modern" style.

 

[B34NS]

Not sure how that is relevant, but yes, you could probably get a forged 52100 chefs knife from an ABS MS for $650. You can also get one of Murray Carters "rough finished" knifes in that price range or even a little less. With that said, a number of the ABS MS the guys who kind specialized in such things, like Bob Kramer, Bill Burke or Michael Rader are going to charge you considerably more. Cut Brooklyn knives are apparently rather popular. My only question was why he charges less for his 1095 line? I find it interesting that he is now making traditional style knives as opposed to just his signature "modern" style.

Well there's the heat treat, blade geometry, and materials used outside of knife steel for handles hardware etc. It's more about the finesse required to take something from good to great. I hear you about the 1095, I feel that's more the pricing scale he entered into to stay competitive against japanese carbon steels, I'm guessing. Most younger cooks want a "knife with japanese writing on it". They're much less concerned with the quality of said product. A great example, a fellow chef I used to work with on the line has been making some 52100 blades, having the heat treat done by a local master smith and he does the rest. He's still new, but has to cover his costs as he runs a brick and mortar knife shop, but he's charging much less for his. Probably not much different in terms of process really from what Joels up to, it's just different when someone whos not a chef makes chef's knives. They're always more expensive than what real chefs can afford, they're really just for well off brooklynite homecooks.

 

[jdm61]

Well there's the heat treat, blade geometry, and materials used outside of knife steel for handles hardware etc. It's more about the finesse required to take something from good to great. I hear you about the 1095, I feel that's more the pricing scale he entered into to stay competitive against japanese carbon steels, I'm guessing. Most younger cooks want a "knife with japanese writing on it". They're much less concerned with the quality of said product. A great example, a fellow chef I used to work with on the line has been making some 52100 blades, having the heat treat done by a local master smith and he does the rest. He's still new, but has to cover his costs as he runs a brick and mortar knife shop, but he's charging much less for his. Probably not much different in terms of process really from what Joels up to, it's just different when someone whos not a chef makes chef's knives. They're always more expensive than what real chefs can afford, they're really just for well off brooklynite homecooks.

Not sure about that. New York has a goodly number of high zoot chefs. of course, th really high end guys like Thomas Keller make money putting their name on halfway decent mid level stuff or worse regardless of what they actually use in their kitchen. And then of course, you have stuff like the POS Signature Collection from Guy Fieri, Rachael Ray, etc. But its the same everywhere in the knife world. You have BBQ competition guys who spend tens of thousands of dollars on a custom smoker rig yet use a $20 bread knife or worse, an electric knife to cut their meat when they know that presentation is part of the persnickety judging standards. I guess it is a good thing that the ALL apparently use crap knives.

 

[B34NS]

Not sure about that. New York has a goodly number of high zoot chefs. of course, th really high end guys like Thomas Keller make money putting their name on halfway decent mid level stuff or worse regardless of what they actually use in their kitchen. And then of course, you have stuff like the POS Signature Collection from Guy Fieri, Rachael Ray, etc. But its the same everywhere in the knife world. You have BBQ competition guys who spend tens of thousands of dollars on a custom smoker rig yet use a $20 bread knife or worse, an electric knife to cut their meat when they know that presentation is part of the persnickety judging standards. I guess it is a good thing that the ALL apparently use crap knives.

I've seen TK use his endorsed MACs all the time, at this point I'd say he uses a spoon more than a knife every day.

I know what you mean about the garbage celebrity chef stuff that's out there. Truly sucks for home cooks who don't know any better.

 

[B34NS]

Are you saying that handforged 52100 and stock removal 52100 are not in the same spectrum? Sorry if I misunderstood.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I was referring to the fact it's the same 52100, just different ideas of "finished" for the same cost, not saying that one's better than the other. I can't speak to why his 1095, but my guess is that's his bargain steel.

 

[jdm61]

Sorry, I should have clarified. I was referring to the fact it's the same 52100, just different ideas of "finished" for the same cost, not saying that one's better than the other. I can't speak to why his 1095, but my guess is that's his bargain steel.

he uses the 1095 for his lower priced stuff. I was wrong about the price difference, It is maybe $100 more at most for a 52100 getup than the 1095 one. The funny part is that the steel costs about the same and while neither are what I would call a beginner steel, they aren't really difficult to heat treat properly if you have decent gear and can hit and hold the correct temps.