Lock Strength Test Request - Extrema Ratio RAO vs the Cold Steel 4-MAX

[Stays Sharp]

I'm gonna laugh pretty hard if the RAO loses even with pin. The amount of salt(tears) in the thread and video would be enough to preserve all of the cod in the sea.

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From what I've read, no one is really pushing for the RAO to win so I think that if it does, the "pseudo haters" if there were any would just say ok and move on to something else to talk about. What else can they do.

It's set up nicely right now for Demko and CS... If it's a tie/loss, then it's a tie/loss with a claimed "fixed blade", and if they beat this "fixed blade" they'll boast war stories about it for ten generations. Also, I have high doubts that they will post their knife losing anyway so there is also that. I think we either see the 4MAX win or nothing at all.

My prediction is that the RAO's aluminum frame will be its achilles heel.. Watch out for that.

 

[Poleaxe]

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From what I've read, no one is really pushing for the RAO to win so I think that if it does, the "pseudo haters" if there were any would just say ok and move on to something else to talk about. What else can they do.

It's set up nicely right now for Demko and CS... If it's a tie/loss, then it's a tie/loss with a claimed "fixed blade", and if they beat this "fixed blade" they'll boast war stories about it for ten generations. My prediction is that the RAO's aluminum frame will be its achilles heel.. Watch out for that.

lol Pseudo haters..ok bro how ironic.

 

[Stays Sharp]

lol Pseudo haters..ok bro how ironic.

So give me the irony.

Let's start with your post I replied to... You imply that people are forcing the issue to see the triad lose.... Fair enough... Pull a quote from me saying anything remote to having an interest in this test altogether. If anything, I am not too enthused with these tests altogether.. Show me one where I was rooting for the RAO.

Having read the entire thread, it seems like the only one pushing for the test hard is the OP. I've never read him say that he wants a certain result so I don't know if it were true that he'd be salty then he was pseudo hating I don't know, don't take the term too seriously I just made it up.

 

[bld522]

Geez. Are we really going to make this so personal that the mod buries this thread too? Come on, guys. Give it a rest.

 

[Jonslaught]

Geez. Are we really going to make this so personal that the mod buries this thread too? Come on, guys. Give it a rest.

I wouldn't worry about it, we have our info, if it gets taken down, we put it up again, and continue to do so, until the masses tire of their quarrels. Its safe as long as the theme remains.

 

[ursamajor]

Sorry, Jim. Fixed-blade knives don't fold . . . ever. Screwing or unscewing things into them doesn't change that. They just don't fold. That's what the word "fixed" in the conjugation "fixed-blade" means.

The only way to turn a folder into a fixed-blade is to solder or weld the blade to the handle so it becomes permanent.

I can't believe I'm having to explain this to you.

That is technically false. Fixed blades with cable tangs (take the Natchez Bowie for example). If you unscrewed the bottom, and pulled the handle off, you could fold the cable tang however you want.

I consider the RAO a folder. But the blade is fixed when the pin is in, as you cannot fold it without destroying the knife.

Is it a fixed blade? It kinda like the whole "a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square"

 

[ursamajor]

I'm gonna laugh pretty hard if the RAO loses even with pin. The amount of salt(tears) in the thread and video would be enough to preserve all of the cod in the sea.

Hang the weight positive, give it a full Ti handle and the RAO, even with the pin soldered in, will fail spectacularly against ANY Triad in the same test-even the Tuff Lite. That design is hype.

 

[ishiyumisan]

The ain't no way for cold steel to win on the static weight against the Rao But, I'm more than confident that CS can build something more tougher.
No more speculation, Try to believe iT.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Honestly, I think the thing that will give first in the weight hang test is Mr. Demko's table.

 

[philwar]

The RAO is a bit of an oddity, a thing I had to have when I first saw it. I agree with Ankerson that it's not a knife one would carry, like, ever. I certainly never have. Love to fondle it though.
I am not rooting for any of the two. They are both so much stronger than any conceivable task could ever demand of them. The fact that we apparently agree that the 4 MAX will win it if the RAO is not allowed to use the pin speaks volumes of the confidence the Tri-Ad lock inspires. It truly is an incredible locking system. Apparently we also feel that even with the pin, the outcome is not foregone in any way.

What's taking Andrew so long, anyway?

 

[Jonslaught]

Boy, it is sexy, isn't it? Can't wait for my Chinese clone to get here.

 

[Cotherion]

The Rao will lose. The soft aluminum will bend/fail if you spine whack it. Even with the additional pin what happens is the stupid soft aluminum that is also stupid thin (not referring to handle scale thickness) deforms if you spine whack it. Blade play is huge after spine whacking.

I know cause I f-ed up my Rao and another ER folder (pin in the backlock lockbar sheared off after low level spine whacking). Henceforth, no more Extrema Ratio for me. What a waste of cash, it ain't cheap.

 

[Cotherion]

Did I mention I gave my table battle scars doing the same thing onto a Lawman! The little Lawman folder didn't fail even after I used it like a hammer.

Yeah yeah, spine whacking is bad but I was bored.

 

[mrnotsam123]

That is technically false. Fixed blades with cable tangs (take the Natchez Bowie for example). If you unscrewed the bottom, and pulled the handle off, you could fold the cable tang however you want.

I consider the RAO a folder. But the blade is fixed when the pin is in, as you cannot fold it without destroying the knife.

Is it a fixed blade? It kinda like the whole "a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square"

Not really....the "technicality" you pointed out is a stretch at best. A folder is a knife that by design folds the blade into handle so as to not need a sheath and a fixed blade by design is something that is a blade and a handle whether full tang or not and requires some form of sheathing, generally the knife is 1 solid piece of steel with a handle put over the tang or molded on.

The Rao will lose. The soft aluminum will bend/fail if you spine whack it. Even with the additional pin what happens is the stupid soft aluminum that is also stupid thin (not referring to handle scale thickness) deforms if you spine whack it. Blade play is huge after spine whacking.

I know cause I f-ed up my Rao and another ER folder (pin in the backlock lockbar sheared off after low level spine whacking). Henceforth, no more Extrema Ratio for me. What a waste of cash, it ain't cheap.

However I firmly agree with you here, the aluminum is likely to shear on the RAO before anything else.

Hang the weight positive, give it a full Ti handle and the RAO, even with the pin soldered in, will fail spectacularly against ANY Triad in the same test-even the Tuff Lite. That design is hype.

and you sir are WAY too overconfident. A full ti handle eliminates the lack of strength that aluminum presents in the original design and with the pin soldered in the only thing that would break would be the pivot or the blade.

Just because you like cold steel better doesn't mean they are the end all be all.

 

[ursamajor]

Not really....the "technicality" you pointed out is a stretch at best. A folder is a knife that by design folds the blade into handle so as to not need a sheath and a fixed blade by design is something that is a blade and a handle whether full tang or not and requires some form of sheathing, generally the knife is 1 solid piece of steel with a handle put over the tang or molded on.



However I firmly agree with you here, the aluminum is likely to shear on the RAO before anything else.



and you sir are far too over-confident. a full ti handle eliminates the lack of strenth that aluminum presents in the original design and with the pin soldered in the only thing that would break would be the pivot or the blade.

just because you like cold steel better doesn't mean they are the end all be all.

false. With positive pressure, not even a gram of force is transfered to the pin. It will sit entirely on the axis lock. So, it will be a 2nd rate axis lock (Benchmade still does it better than anyone else) vs a triad. The RAO will see zip in the way of help from the pin.

With the Triad, positive pressure, and negative pressure, are both put on the pin. With the RAO, only negative pressure transfers to the pin.

Take another look at the RAO's design, and you will see what I mean.

 

[mrnotsam123]

false. With positive pressure, not even a gram of force is transfered to the pin. It will sit entirely on the axis lock. So, it will be a 2nd rate axis lock (Benchmade still does it better than anyone else) vs a triad. The RAO will see zip in the way of help from the pin.

With the Triad, positive pressure, and negative pressure, are both put on the pin. With the RAO, only negative pressure transfers to the pin.

Take another look at the RAO's design, and you will see what I mean.

I see exactly what you mean, but what is the purpose of this test? What does a positive pressure test prove any more than the negative pressure? The weight hang test in and of itself is a test that while cool is WAY overkill for folders. And negative pressure If I understand you correctly is the only thing someone would have to reasonably worry about. The only thing I see the Positive pressure test proving is that a knife can lock in the open position without breaking the lock or frame/handle. I do agree with you that overall it is probably better with the triad lock keeping both negative and positive pressure centralized to the same area of the locking mechanism whereas the ER's axis and pin has more room to fail but that doesn't mean it will. The only failures that you can have are the blade folding into the handle and if the pin is in that means the pin or the frame sheared OR the blade can be extended back past its open locking point which is either a failure of the frame or the ER axis style lock; but seeing as there's a backspacer there it would seem unlikely that the blade would be extended back past it's locking point. Unless of course the frame sheared/broke


Here's an earlier thread with a review including mention of an article where the RAO was hard used.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/869528-Extrema-Ratio-RAO

And you're A-Z conclusion certainly jumps a few steps "It will sit entirely on the axis lock. So, it will be a 2nd rate axis lock (Benchmade still does it better than anyone else) vs a triad." just to quote. Your logic is that just because it will be forced to sit on ER's version of an axis lock that that means it will fail. You don't support your hypothesis with proof in design as to why benchmade does it better. Throwing out a brand name and saying they do it the best doesn't win anything, just means you think their design is better.

 

[ursamajor]

I see exactly what you mean, but what is the purpose of this test? What does a positive pressure test prove any more than the negative pressure? The weight hang test in and of itself is a test that while cool is WAY overkill for folders. And negative pressure If I understand you correctly is the only thing someone would have to reasonably worry about. The only thing I see the Positive pressure test proving is that a knife can lock in the open position without breaking the lock or frame/handle. I do agree with you that overall it is probably better with the triad lock keeping both negative and positive pressure centralized to the same area of the locking mechanism whereas the ER's axis and pin has more room to fail but that doesn't mean it will. The only failures that you can have are the blade folding into the handle and if the pin is in that means the pin or the frame sheared OR the blade can be extended back past its open locking point which is either a failure of the frame or the ER axis style lock; but seeing as there's a backspacer there it would seem unlikely that the blade would be extended back past it's locking point. Unless of course the frame sheared/broke


Here's an earlier thread with a review including mention of an article where the RAO was hard used.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/869528-Extrema-Ratio-RAO

And you're A-Z conclusion certainly jumps a few steps "It will sit entirely on the axis lock. So, it will be a 2nd rate axis lock (Benchmade still does it better than anyone else) vs a triad." just to quote. Your logic is that just because it will be forced to sit on ER's version of an axis lock that that means it will fail. You don't support your hypothesis with proof in design as to why benchmade does it better. Throwing out a brand name and saying they do it the best doesn't win anything, just means you think their design is better.

I have seen other versions of axis not hold a candle Benchmade's. Look at the Bedlam vs Talwar test. Considering that forces will push the RAO's lock parallel with the direction the lock actuates in, whereas they are perpendicular to the direction Benchmade's actuates in, do you feel confident in the RAO's ability to hang weight at the same 400+lbs clip of the Bedlam...sans pin? Just axis v axis. I'm not, because Benchmade's design, is as such that negative and positive force, press where the lock is strongest. ER's, will be pressed where it is weakest.

SOG runs a gimmick axis variant too. There is a reason why Benchmade's axis runs the direction it does. Go watch the SOG Pentagon Elite II, and see why I call those others variants "2nd rate"

 

[mrnotsam123]

I have seen other versions of axis not hold a candle Benchmade's. Look at the Bedlam vs Talwar test. Considering that forces will push the RAO's lock parallel with the direction the lock actuates in, whereas they are perpendicular to the direction Benchmade's actuates in, do you feel confident in the RAO's ability to hang weight at the same 400+lbs clip of the Bedlam...sans pin? Just axis v axis. I'm not, because Benchmade's design, is as such that negative and positive force, press where the lock is strongest. ER's, will be pressed where it is weakest.

SOG runs a gimmick axis variant too. There is a reason why Benchmade's axis runs the direction it does. Go watch the SOG Pentagon Elite II, and see why I call those others variants "2nd rate"

Is this the video you're referring to? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-HjX6Hq_GM
On the one hand I don't think nearly any folder should ever need to handle 400+ lbs of force downward on the lock. On the other hand yes its a fun novelty to watch.

I'm still a little fuzzy on how the lock would break with the positive pressure, as I said the frame would have to shear because of the lock and backspacer (assumedly also a stop pin) the blade has really nowhere to go without those breaking first. As for the negative pressure in the same test I stand by the claim that the aluminum handle would be the first thing to give. With the pressure being put on the blade downward the lock (If I understand it correctly) would take some of the pressure, while the pin takes the majority of it again leaving the only likely failure to be the handle.

As far as SOG goes I've never really considered them to be hard use. All the ones I've handled seemed like they would have lock issues and had thinner blades. Just my opinion though and I certainly haven't handed them all.

 

[skwurll]

I'd like to see tests were the folders are put on a rack similar to what was used in medieval Britain.

 

[FCCBCT]

I found this claim while researching another thread and I thought I'd bring it to your attention:

"The result is the knife called RAO, a survival knife, not a big folder but a compact field knife with a strong and heavy blade and a very safe locking system, assisted by an extra safe device that turn the folder in a real fix blade knife. The blade opening and closing are acting with both the hands together to minimize the risk of self injuries."

Source:http://www.extremaratioknivesdivision.eu/#!rao/c2qi

The RAO is the only folder I've ever seen that claims it can be turned into a REAL fixed-blade knife. That would presumably give it greater lock strength than any other folder in existence, let alone any folder with a Tri-Ad lock including the 4-MAX.

I see that you recently tested the Extrema Ratio Fulcrum II vs the Pocket Bushman and posted the results on Youtube (link: https://youtu.be/UtcCDMssqCc), so clearly you're familiar with the brand.

Would you be willing to test the claim that the Extrema Ratio RAO can be turned into a real fixed-blade?

Thanks.

Hi all, I just did this field review on Extrema Ratio's RAOII you will see me giving it the stick and make up your minds about this big folder. It's a long video but hope you won't be bored LOL!