Texas Knife Laws

jimmyconway32 said:
Can anyone tell me if Minute Maid Park's ban on knives is legal? The stadium is owned by the Harris County Houston Sports Authority, which by their own description "is a government agency that maintains and oversees the bond debt service on the professional sports stadiums, as well as assists with the sports marketing for the destination." My unprofessional interpretation of the law is that they have no right to ban knives (other than "illegal knives" as defined in the Penal Code).
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My name is Rick Briscoe. I am the legislative director of Open Carry Texas and it was my pleasure to work closely with Knife Rights last year when knives were added to the state pre-emption statute, local government code, section 229.001, which prohibits political subdivisions of the state (cities, counties and so on) from enforcing knife ordinances more restrictive than state law. I am not an attorney and nothing I may say is legal advice and although I worked very closely with Knife Rights I do not represent Knife Rights and nothing I may say is Knife Rights policy. For official Knife Rights policy you should contact http://www.kniferights.org Any opinions I may state are my own.

OK, I think I have most of the disclaimers out of the way. The knife pre-emption bill which Governor Greg Abbott signed into law took effect Sept 1, 2015 and keeps cities such as Corpus Christi and my home San Antonio from enforcing ordinances that are more restrictive than state law and inconsistent with each other. I have been working with the San Antonio city staff to get the knife ordinance and several others off the books. (In case you did not know, San Antonio had the distinction of being named the number 4 worst knife rights city in America.)

To address the question about the exclusion of knives from the stadium, it will be necessary to confirm that the agency actually owns it instead of merely being a financing mechanism. I would also be interested in seeing a photo of the sign which says "no knives" and any other signs. There might be 30.06/.07 signs and a TABC Blue sign which says that possession of a handgun other than one licensed under subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code is illegal. As you will recall a LTC handgun is prohibited at professional sporting events by statute although they are commonly posted with 30.06/.07 signs. They could be posted with the Penal Code section 46 provision. Even without posting the Penal Code provision the statute applies. It is up to the LTC holder to know these things.

There is a letter AG Ken Paxton sent to a city, Pasadena IIRC, dealing with the posting of 30.06/.07 signs on city property rented to a gun show which has posted in the past. The AG concluded that the vendor could not post these signs because it retained its character as city property. Although that letter does not have the broad application to other cities, I think it gives us confirmation of the principle involved. There is a request for opinion of the Attorney General on a situation which is similar enough that I hope it will help provide guidance to the cities in this matter.

Although I have concluded that that it is probable that the prohibition is improper, I want to strongly discourage anyone thinking of challenging it by getting arrested. A criminal trial is expensive to put on a defense and the deck is stacked against you.

I would like to follow up on this with the agency after collecting as much information as possible.

Again, I am not a representative of Knife Rights, but I am a member and would recommend anyone who cares about their knives join or make a donation. Knife Rights is fighting for our rights in legislatures all across the country and racking up many wins. I anticipate Knife Rights will be back in Austin next year to work on some unfinished business.

Please PM me if you wish and I'll give you my contact info.

Thanks,

Rick Briscoe

If you can help me out with these things I would appreciate it.
 
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Rick,

I am new to this forum and do not have "permission" to PM. I'm not sure how to enable it, so I'll just give you what information I have here:

I did not notice any signs at the stadium prohibiting knives, but I'll look next time I go to a game and get a few pictures. The security personnel manning the metal detectors at the entrances say "no pocket knives" as they give people instructions for passing through the metal detectors. Also, knives are specifically listed as a prohibited item at the Astros/Minute Maid Park website here.

I have emailed the Harris County - Houston Sports Authority, Minute Maid Park, and the Houston Police Department asking for clarification. I've only received a reply from the HCHSA so far. Their response:

"Thank you for visiting Harris County – Houston Sports Authority’s website and for reaching out to us. Although we oversee the debt service on the sports venues, we don't oversee or set any of the policies of the tenants. For questions regarding Minute Maid Park, we suggest you contact Mr. Marcel Braithwaite, Senior Vice President, Business Operations, Houston Astros. He can be reached at 713/259-8900."

I have not called Mr. Braithwaite yet.

I will update as I get more information.
 
glistam said:
In Texas state law it's legal to carry single-edge knives, folder or fixed, at long as the blade less than 5.5 inches. Throwing knives, daggers and "bowie knives" are illegal regardless of length.

Texas is one of the states where concealment is irrelevant. If it's illegal, it's illegal open or concealed. If it's legal, it's legal concealed.

I should warn you that in Mireles v. State, 1917, a butcher knife was ruled to be a "bowie knife," though the wording of the presiding judge seemed to imply it was the knife's immense size (9 inch blade) and the suspicious circumstances of it's possession were the major factors. This was also nearly a century ago.

I was unable to find any local laws that cover knives in the city of Austin or Travis County.

The Becker has a just over 3 inch blade, so technically it's legal. Like any knife though, have some social responsibility when carrying it.
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Thanks for the information Gilstam,

I never knew it was 5.5 inches by law i see people with at least 6-7 inch blades but they are fixed. But i deffo agree you should always be responsible with you "protection" because you know what they say, if you have one you more likely to use one when not needed!!

Keep safe
 
I have a question (working here in Austin towards my Basic Peace Officer so would love your input) I have a SOG Seal Pup, and just received the hard nylon sheath replacement bc my ballistic nylon messed up with normal wear shortly after wearing it. The knife is legal but the sheath is big. How is that handled, and if you dont mind a friend of mine who heard what I was persuing asked me the legal length for people that were on probation, if that was a factor in length. Any
info would be appreciated.
 
Wulf09 said:
I have a question (working here in Austin towards my Basic Peace Officer so would love your input) I have a SOG Seal Pup, and just received the hard nylon sheath replacement bc my ballistic nylon messed up with normal wear shortly after wearing it. The knife is legal but the sheath is big. How is that handled, and if you dont mind a friend of mine who heard what I was persuing asked me the legal length for people that were on probation, if that was a factor in length. Any
info would be appreciated.
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Wulf09, as for you, the size of the sheath is not regulated, however, there is always a possibility that a peace officer might decide he wanted to know what size knife is in that sheath if you follow my meaning. I do not specifically recall the size of the blade of the Seal Pup, but it must be 5 1/2 inches in length or less to be legal under current Texas law subject to a very few exceptions such as while hunting or fishing. I do not say to offend anyone, but not all peace officers are familiar with the law as it relates to knives and so there is always the possibility of an encounter with someone who mistakenly believes the law to be different.

One detail that is important is that the 5 1/2 inches is the length of the entire blade, not just the cutting surface.

As to your friend, it depends upon what the offense is for which he has been placed on probation (e.g. felony, class A or B misdemeanor or whatever) and what terms and conditions have been imposed upon him as a condition of probation by the court and/or probation officer. This is a question best answered by the attorney who represented him as I have no idea what those details might be and I am not an attorney and obviously can not give legal advice.

As you are no doubt aware from your training, there a great many laws with which a peace officer must become familiar. I in no way am being critical of officers who may not be familiar with knife or firearms laws to the extent many activists or enthusiasts may be for their particular area of interest.
 
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The size of the sheath doesn't mean a thing. If the knife is legal, you have no problems. The only repercussion to carrying a legal knife in a sheath capable of holding a significantly larger knife, a LEO will probably ask you about it IF you called attention to yourself in some manner by being a doofus, in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc. Once it is revealed that the knife is legal and the sheath just too big, no big deal, except for why you caught their eye in the first place.

The second question is going to dependent on what your friend is on probation for. He will have to ask his probation officer about that. If his conviction is for writing hot checks, low level drug possession, probably minimal, if any restrictions. Assault with a deadly weapon, he may not even be able to have a pair of chip sticks around.
 
zzyzzogeton, That is what I said with the exception of your "doofus" remark. There was an arrest in Austin not that long ago involving a man who was wearing a fixed blade knife as he went into a convenience store/ice house. An APD officer observed him going in, waited for him to come out and then measured the length of the blade which was too long. Because the convenience store sold alcohol, the offense was charged as a felony.
 
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I own an Esee 5P.

The handle of the knife is curved, significantly, over the tang of the blade, so how long the blade will be measured depends on what portion of the handle you measure it from. If you measure from the tip of the blade to the middle of the handle, the blade will measure as just less than 5.5". If you measure the blade from the tip to the edge of the handle, the blade will measure as just over 5.5"

Too close to bother with. You'll get one side will saying it is legal, the other side saying it is illegal.
 
SwissArmyTenor, I think you answered your own question. If there is any way the blade can be measured and that is longer than 5 1/2 inches in length, it could be a problem if a peace officer measured it that way. The problem is that there is no specified manner of measuring the blade length. If it came down to it, I would hope that any ambiguity in the measurement would be construed in favor of the citizen in court, but being in court is not where you want to be. Among other things, it is expensive and you don't want a judge or jury to be deciding if you committed an offense. Knife Rights is continuing to work to repeal the arbitrary Texas law, but, until that happens, be very careful.
 
Ronin1 said:
SwissArmyTenor, I think you answered your own question. If there is any way the blade can be measured and that is longer than 5 1/2 inches in length, it could be a problem if a peace officer measured it that way. The problem is that there is no specified manner of measuring the blade length. If it came down to it, I would hope that any ambiguity in the measurement would be construed in favor of the citizen in court, but being in court is not where you want to be. Among other things, it is expensive and you don't want a judge or jury to be deciding if you committed an offense. Knife Rights is continuing to work to repeal the arbitrary Texas law, but, until that happens, be very careful.
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I have to disagree with the statement that law is ambigous. It is very specific in that to be legal for public carry, the blade must be less than 5.5".

Now the law "might be" considered "outdated" in that blades outside the standards at the time the law was written are now being made/imported, but it is NOT ambiguous, especially when case law is included.

Per case law (I can't remember the exact case of the top of my head, but it was up in the panhandle, IIRC), a blade is measured in a straight line between the tip of the blade and the front of the guard or to where a guard would be if the knife had a guard. On folders this has typically been considered to be the front edge of the bolster. Nothing about blade shape or edge length mentioned. Nothing about needing to follow a blade contour.

As of right now, it would need a test case to clarify the status of these blade shapes.

Ideally, Knife Rights will be able to get the law passed next year that eliminates blade length completely. We were just "that close" this past legislation and would most likely have passed the Senate vote and been signed into law, if not for last minute jackass shenanigans by Senator Whitmire out of Houston.
 
zzyzzogeton said:
I have to disagree with the statement that law is ambigous. It is very specific in that to be legal for public carry, the blade must be less than 5.5".

Now the law "might be" considered "outdated" in that blades outside the standards at the time the law was written are now being made/imported, but it is NOT ambiguous, especially when case law is included.

Per case law (I can't remember the exact case of the top of my head, but it was up in the panhandle, IIRC), a blade is measured in a straight line between the tip of the blade and the front of the guard or to where a guard would be if the knife had a guard. On folders this has typically been considered to be the front edge of the bolster. Nothing about blade shape or edge length mentioned. Nothing about needing to follow a blade contour. To

As of right now, it would need a test case to clarify the status of these blade shapes.

Ideally, Knife Rights will be able to get the law passed next year that eliminates blade length completely. We were just "that close" this past legislation and would most likely have passed the Senate vote and been signed into law, if not for last minute jackass shenanigans by Senator Whitmire out of Houston.
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Yes, I know about the last minute. I was there.

The ambiguity to which I refer is not the length of the blade, but the precise means of measuring it. There is case law which, for example, specifies that it is the entire length of the blade, not just the cutting surface, that establishes the length of the blade. This is the reason why I caution people that, if there is any way of measuring a blade which results in a length greater than 5 1/2 inches even if it does not seem the logical way to them, there is an uncertainty in the result which places them at risk.

I too am hopeful that Knife Rights will succeed in getting the bill passed next year.
 
So does anyone know if the Hinderer XM-18 3.5" Bowie would be legal to carry? Or is it okay since it is a folder?
 
WhiteShampoo said:
So does anyone know if the Hinderer XM-18 3.5" Bowie would be legal to carry? Or is it okay since it is a folder?
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Ronin1 said:
If it is a "bowie knife", it is illegal no matter what the blade length. (The Penal Code does not even capitalize the name.)

Texas Penal Code Section 46.01(6)(D)

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm
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I've always thought that a Bowie knife is a fixed blade, but the term doesn't seem to be defined in the law.
 
It is legal to carry.

Yes, "bowie knives" are currently illegal for public carry, but bowie knives or Bowie knives as it pertains to the law are fixed blade knives. The definition of a Bowie/bowie knife as it pertains in Texas is not defined, but as one judge said 'I can't describe a Bowie knife, but I sure know one when I see it."

So the hinderer is not a bowie because it is not a fixed blade. Why they call it a "bowie blade" is simply marketing hype for a clip point blade.

And being a flipper is of no concern because even switch blades and balisongs are legal as long as they meet the 5.5" length limit and the single edge only criteria.
 
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If this is the knife, the biggest question I would have is whether there is a second sharpened edge. The problem is that the legislature made no attempt to define what a "bowie knife" is. It has been defined by the courts on a case by case basis after the fact which is a terrible way of administering Justice. There is no definition of a "bowie knife" even within the knife industry.

The problem you present is the manufacturer creating a question by their naming (Bowie style knife), product description or advertising. The Texas courts have not yet taken these matters into consideration that I am aware of, but the courts in the U.K. have and I am concerned that it could happen here too.

I can not tell you with certainty whether this particular knife would be considered an illegal "bowie knife" by a police officer, prosecutor or court. Each has a great deal of discretion in such matters. That said, looking at it, it does not scream "bowie knife" at me. The decision is, of course, yours to take.

This is not legal advice. If you desire legal advice, please consult a qualified attorney.

Shameless plug. Please support Knife Rights. They are working very hard to repeal these arbitrary, repressive laws. When they succeed, questions such as this one will no longer be necessary. I look forward to that day.

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Rick-Hinderer-XM-18-Bowie-Frame--28145
 
I know where you're coming from and I have given similar advice to folks before. That being said, however, and realizing that one could always run into a LEO being the south end of a north bound mule, every deputy, city police officer and judge (probably close to 100) I personally know would laugh any LEO who tried to claim a 3.5" blade folding knife was a bowie knife right out of the town/county/state, regardless of what the marketing literature called it.
 
That is the problem. Many people might say that a "bowie knife" is a fixed blade knife, but the statute doesn't say so. The court cases that come readily to mind were fixed blade knives, but all that the court actually ruled on was that the particular knife the defendant was charged with possessing was a "bowie knife". The courts don't go on to provide additional guidance. The manufacturer could just have easily said clipped point blade and avoided the issue, but I am guessing their marketing people thought that the Bowie name would sell more knives. We simply do not know the result with a high degree of certainty.
 
zzyzzogeton said:
I know where you're coming from and I have given similar advice to folks before. That being said, however, and realizing that one could always run into a LEO being the south end of a north bound mule, every deputy, city police officer and judge (probably close to 100) I personally know would laugh any LEO who tried to claim a 3.5" blade folding knife was a bowie knife right out of the town/county/state, regardless of what the marketing literature called it.
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All I can say is to repeat that it is a decision which each individual decision must make keeping in mind the uncertainty caused by our laws and how much risk he is willing to assume. The individual should also consider the locale.

San Antonio, the number four worst city for knife rights in a Knife Rights ranking, enforced its anti-locking blade knife ordinance in many different ways, sometimes using a visible pocket clip as a pretext for a search.

Cheers
 
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