- Joined
- Aug 1, 1999
- Messages
- 3,036
What are thoughts on the ideal blade length and why?
The Fighting Knife in modern warfare
- Thread starter jacknife
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
The consensus seems to be about 7" for a combat knife, but to me, that seems too long to control the point for utility, and too short to really chop effectively. I always find myself wanting to carry one 4-5 inches and one 10-15 inches. If I had to compromise, I think I would lean toward 8-9 inches myself. The one-knife-does-it-all survival guys seem to favor 10" blades.
In my experience an 8" blade is perfect...IF designed and made right.
Recently saw / carried in the field an old Randall #1 in leather handle, single guard, 8" blade. Most beautifully balanced and quick knife in the hand I've ever been blessed to work with. Belonged to old SF operator, Vietnam era, who carried there and elsewhere during his service.
Recently saw / carried in the field an old Randall #1 in leather handle, single guard, 8" blade. Most beautifully balanced and quick knife in the hand I've ever been blessed to work with. Belonged to old SF operator, Vietnam era, who carried there and elsewhere during his service.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 1999
- Messages
- 3,036
I have been told that some units have a 7" maximum (who knows why), so that is where I've built most of my combat blades. The only "operators" I've done business with each have their own ideas of what is best, and that has ranged from 4" to 9". I have to agree that it depends on the knife, but assuming the knife is light and quick at any length, what would be best for most tactical needs, wet or otherwise?
I'm also curious about machete/short sword interest in the military. Obviously terrain may dictate needs, but the broader question would focus on things other than weed whacking. Maybe that should be another thread...
I'm also curious about machete/short sword interest in the military. Obviously terrain may dictate needs, but the broader question would focus on things other than weed whacking. Maybe that should be another thread...
Jerry,
The 7" max length sometimes stated by military units in the US is meant, in my experience, to prevent young troops from toting massive knives to the field which are cumbersome in many cases, and unnecessary in others. For the most part sheath knives in the military have been - when of an issue nature - either 5" or 7" in blade length. While with the 9th Inf Division in a recon company, and again in the 10th SF, I carried a Western Bowie...because the unit offered no such length restriction on privately owned field knives for duty use in the field.
I've always felt an 8" blade was the best all around length for a full out fighting knife, but have carried far more 7" length blades than any other such measurement. I don't know that there's a final answer to this question any more than to any other knife related question that might be asked. It's a personal preference kinda thing in the end, and certainly there's more than enough bladeware and makers to go to for the "ultimate" solution
The 7" max length sometimes stated by military units in the US is meant, in my experience, to prevent young troops from toting massive knives to the field which are cumbersome in many cases, and unnecessary in others. For the most part sheath knives in the military have been - when of an issue nature - either 5" or 7" in blade length. While with the 9th Inf Division in a recon company, and again in the 10th SF, I carried a Western Bowie...because the unit offered no such length restriction on privately owned field knives for duty use in the field.
I've always felt an 8" blade was the best all around length for a full out fighting knife, but have carried far more 7" length blades than any other such measurement. I don't know that there's a final answer to this question any more than to any other knife related question that might be asked. It's a personal preference kinda thing in the end, and certainly there's more than enough bladeware and makers to go to for the "ultimate" solution
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2000
- Messages
- 169
hmmm...
I think this all depends on the scenario.
If you're clearing the area...
suppressed SMG/pistol, double-tap three-round burst to the head. no shouting. HEck if you need to sneak up close enough to slash his throat, you're better off just popping the guy and moving on.
If you need to be really sneaky and leave no mess for other BGs to find... the dagger is probably it... the situation determines the tools I think.
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2000
- Messages
- 1,385
To me, using a knife for sentry removal is kind of a last option thing.
You want to talk about spinning your panties into a wad. Try sneaking up on someone and killing them quietly with a knife.
Great way to look inside yourself and see what is there, but very difficult to do.
Killing a sentry with a knife is Mr. Murphys best friend.
People in general, and people with guns especially, are not super stationary. They get uncomfortable and move around/ change positions. It is hard to creep up and touch someone, let alone kill them w/ a knife when you get there.
If you are ever in a group, the group will be very small, of people who have killed a sentry w/ a knife there is a common thought within the group;
It sucked.
It was VERY difficult.
They hurt themselves while doing it.
The Fcker wouldnt DIE!
Couldnt breath.
Hands didnt work.
Forgot if they had their knife, were afraid to look to see. (Knife is in hand at this point).
Knew the BG could hear your heartbeat/breath.
Pinpoint focus. Which is not always a good thing. One time, I was creeping on this guy, when I got there (range was about two feet at this point) I discovered he had two pals with him. It was a sniper element. Shooter, spotter and a runner. What if I would have jumped the guy? I almost did. I would have had a HELL of a fight on my hands.
A friend of mine nearly had his eye removed by a sentry who casually turned while my man was on his ass. He was just behind the guy, the guy probably got the jeebeez because he was about to be killed, turned and bumped my mans eye w/ his flash suppresser. Just a bump, but metal is harder than bone. Broke his cheekbone. Eye was in very bad shape. The hero still did his job and knifed the fcker. But has a fcked up eye to this day. Infection became an issue before we could get him home.
Not saying it doesnt happen.
But shoot them if you can.
It takes a hell of a man to shout out after being headshot.
Point of story? You can kill someone with any knife you have. Choose your knife as a tool. I like 5.5 to 7.5 inches.
Ever Vigilant
Mick
Post Script: A framing hammer works much better than a knife.
RLTW
You want to talk about spinning your panties into a wad. Try sneaking up on someone and killing them quietly with a knife.
Great way to look inside yourself and see what is there, but very difficult to do.
Killing a sentry with a knife is Mr. Murphys best friend.
People in general, and people with guns especially, are not super stationary. They get uncomfortable and move around/ change positions. It is hard to creep up and touch someone, let alone kill them w/ a knife when you get there.
If you are ever in a group, the group will be very small, of people who have killed a sentry w/ a knife there is a common thought within the group;
It sucked.
It was VERY difficult.
They hurt themselves while doing it.
The Fcker wouldnt DIE!
Couldnt breath.
Hands didnt work.
Forgot if they had their knife, were afraid to look to see. (Knife is in hand at this point).
Knew the BG could hear your heartbeat/breath.
Pinpoint focus. Which is not always a good thing. One time, I was creeping on this guy, when I got there (range was about two feet at this point) I discovered he had two pals with him. It was a sniper element. Shooter, spotter and a runner. What if I would have jumped the guy? I almost did. I would have had a HELL of a fight on my hands.
A friend of mine nearly had his eye removed by a sentry who casually turned while my man was on his ass. He was just behind the guy, the guy probably got the jeebeez because he was about to be killed, turned and bumped my mans eye w/ his flash suppresser. Just a bump, but metal is harder than bone. Broke his cheekbone. Eye was in very bad shape. The hero still did his job and knifed the fcker. But has a fcked up eye to this day. Infection became an issue before we could get him home.
Not saying it doesnt happen.
But shoot them if you can.
It takes a hell of a man to shout out after being headshot.
Point of story? You can kill someone with any knife you have. Choose your knife as a tool. I like 5.5 to 7.5 inches.
Ever Vigilant
Mick
Post Script: A framing hammer works much better than a knife.
RLTW
- Joined
- Nov 2, 1999
- Messages
- 2,805
Gee...thanks Rob!
All kidding aside, Peter LaGana has letters about, and pictures of, the Tomahawk's handi-work in a sentry removal capacity. Not pretty...
All kidding aside, Peter LaGana has letters about, and pictures of, the Tomahawk's handi-work in a sentry removal capacity. Not pretty...
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2000
- Messages
- 1,385
A Hawk would be Sweet!
Sentry take-downs, regardless of the weapon involved, have to be well trained to begin with and after that the field environment tasks even the best training.
Blade length wise a minimum of 5" with optimum of either 7" or 8".
Violence of action dominates the contact.
Always better to avoid sentries if possible (most are creatures of habit anyhow) or to either take/secure them prior to infil (what catagory of mission or tasking are we talking about to begin with?) or remove by means of a firearm, muffled or otherwise.
More often as not it's the chance contact on the trail or in the urban environment that demands immediate action / contact with an opponent who is NOT a sentry. Again, violence of action will most often dominate regardless of how the Threat is engaged.
However, any weapon that keeps you away from the target is good. Whether a 'hawk with a stout handle and keen edge or spike, or a machete with some swinging room, or a .380 with a long tube on it...distance is ALWAYS your friend. A man will fight hard for his life, and unless you're willing and capable of outfighting his will to live with your desire to kill him...
Make mine a Barrett .50 with tube from way out there and a good man behind the gun
Blade length wise a minimum of 5" with optimum of either 7" or 8".
Violence of action dominates the contact.
Always better to avoid sentries if possible (most are creatures of habit anyhow) or to either take/secure them prior to infil (what catagory of mission or tasking are we talking about to begin with?) or remove by means of a firearm, muffled or otherwise.
More often as not it's the chance contact on the trail or in the urban environment that demands immediate action / contact with an opponent who is NOT a sentry. Again, violence of action will most often dominate regardless of how the Threat is engaged.
However, any weapon that keeps you away from the target is good. Whether a 'hawk with a stout handle and keen edge or spike, or a machete with some swinging room, or a .380 with a long tube on it...distance is ALWAYS your friend. A man will fight hard for his life, and unless you're willing and capable of outfighting his will to live with your desire to kill him...
Make mine a Barrett .50 with tube from way out there and a good man behind the gun
- Joined
- Nov 2, 1999
- Messages
- 2,805
hmmm Mick...an MSC tactical sentry axe!! ...sounds like a good TAD exclusive!
In his book, Bill Bagwell argues that troops should carry a large knife (bowie, khukri, bolo, etc.) for sentry removal with an edged weapon. Instead of trying to get in close and pierce the carotid, the attacker would just aim for the base of the neck and cut the spinal cord. Basically the same idea as the hammer. Any thoughts on that, comments?
I would think a spike hawk would be good since it has the advantage of being able to penetrate helmets. Although most the of ones on the market have diamond shaped spikes. I haven't done any testing myself, but it would seem like a tapered spike would not get lodged as easy as the diamond shaped ones, but I could be totally wrong.
David
I would think a spike hawk would be good since it has the advantage of being able to penetrate helmets. Although most the of ones on the market have diamond shaped spikes. I haven't done any testing myself, but it would seem like a tapered spike would not get lodged as easy as the diamond shaped ones, but I could be totally wrong.
David
In my mind, a rifle with a noise suppressor is much more adequate...
I see very few of you guys realize that silencers don't make a gun silent. The sound is still fairly loud. The best way to make a gun silent is to wrap a towel around the muzzle and hold it up to the target. Don't worry about it. This is "blade forums."
I see very few of you guys realize that silencers don't make a gun silent. The sound is still fairly loud. The best way to make a gun silent is to wrap a towel around the muzzle and hold it up to the target. Don't worry about it. This is "blade forums."
not2sharp
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 1999
- Messages
- 19,879
Sirupati comes handy in Afghanistan
Bonjour all,
Been a long time I posted anything since I was travelling extensively but I am back...with some interesting news!
Some of you might remember that back a few months ago, my 20" Sirupati took a separate way when seen on the wall of my office by a visiting SF friend {let's call him Bob}. Knowing that he was on his way to a place where cold nights and no-so nice people are presently causing a lot of trouble, I could not do anything but avoid to leave him "naked". I (tearfully) said goodbye to my Sirupati, hoping the Gods will some days reward my gesture.
Back to a few days ago...
I got a phone call from a friendly voice [Bob] asking me to meet him in DC for lunch. He was in town for a few days. Being the cheap goat that I am, I never turn down a free lunch even if the train fare cost more than the meal. I met with Bob, not so tan after all, but really please that the weather in DC that day was 42 C.
-"Feels like summer to me compare to where I just came from ! By the way, Pierre let me tell you about your, I mean, my blade and how we learned to make friends"
Seems like Bob was enjoying his vacation and doing some side road touring when he came upon a known hornets' nest. (9 big ones to be honest). Being the good patriot that Bob is, he would have felt guilty to waste all the taxpayers' money spent on his training, considering especially that said hornets were trying really hard to permanently sting him and his 2 other tourists friends. With two of them injured, they still managed to dispatch to a friendlier place 7 of the bugs. Now this is where technology and simplicity meet. Bob's hornet dispatching tool being made in USA has a lot of small moving FRAGILE parts that tend to NOT like dirt, cold weather etc. While he can cut the mustache of a flea on a yack' butt at 600 yards, there are times when an AK 74 (field strip in 6 basic parts)looks like a wonder of German enginering!
"Here I am with that %$#^#$%@ piece of @%#$& trying to fix it when the two last bugs come rushing at me. One decide to leave for a friendlier place after my driver manage to give him a third eye but he is out of ammo and tourist 2 is to far to reach and temporarily out of commission. Looks like Bubba in a rush to get himself a yankee forgot to remove the safety or for whatever reasons the Gods are smiling on me that day. In despair, Bubba throw away his weapon and pull out what looks like a vey sharp toohpick.
Flashback to Crocodile Dundee II [for those of us who saw the movie] "Thats not a knife, mate, THAT is a knife!"
Turns out that Bubba is either not a big Paul Hogan's fan or that he was not allowed to see the movie till the end of the scene. Standing close by my side is your, euuuhh, MY sirupati who is dying to take a fresh breath of cold moutain air. I therefor oblige. Bubba's eyes go from sneaky and mean to "Holy cow, I 've got a problem". Yet Bubba rushes me trying to give me the benefit of an unwanted button hole. A kiss from the (MY) blade on his right arm reminds him 21 stiches later that I get very offended by unwanted tailoring. Bubba is now really upset....and bloody, yet picks up the toothpick from the ground with his other hand and rushes me again. Metal sparks, clinging and toothpick blade neatly broken in 1/2 now rests on the grounds of those peacefull moutains. Bubba jumps sideways to grab a fallen gun, hoping to convince me that I REALLY need a butthon hole in my stomach but doing so for a split second exposes his right calf muscle. Ouch! Siru bites him really hard to the bone and sentence him to stay in the same place until I secure him.
Siru 2, Yankees 9 (7+2) Hornets 0.
Medic will gracefully add another 19 stiches to his leg (I believe he will be lucky if he just limps forever)while cursing me for additional unneeded work!
Back to camp. Visit from the boss.
-"What the hell did you use on that poor fellow. Do you realize what @#^%& we could be in if a reporter gets wind of this. I can see headlines " Dirty Yankees provides friendly locals with HALAL meat" What the hell where you thinking??? I want a full report...NOW"
-"Yes Sir. Well you see..... Blah Blah Blah....This is when Siru came to our rescue and managed to get us all out of trouble, SIR"
- " Well finally a local that can fight without screwing up. Where is the "Sea rough party" now?
-"Right here, SIR" and Bob proceed to pull out the blade again.
-"what in Gemini Cricket's smashing jockstraps is THAT???"
- "THAT, SIR, IS THE RESULT OF HUNDRED YEARS OF CRAFTMANSHIP AND A FEW HOURS OF PRIDE. THAT,SIR,IS ALSO WHY I LIKE A US CITIZEN NAMED PIERRE VERY MUCH RIGHT NOW".
The look on the officer's face was really worth it, I was told
_ "Get rid of it right away.... No wait... Just make sure it does not see a camera from too close"
_ "YEEESSSSSSSS SIIIIRRRR"
- "euuuhhhhhh Bob, do you know where I can get me one of these???"
_ I'll be happy to check, Sir,........ but it's gonna cost you"
I have now unlimited beer credit for life! Thank you Uncle Bill
==================================================
====================
A couple of points:
-Name, places have been changed to protect Bob and his friends, however the story is REAL!
-The language is as close as possible from my recollection of Bob's story. Keep in mind that Bob does not have a PHD in English litterature but he had (quite) a few beers and always displays a sick sense of Humor.
_ Knowing that our readerships includes some young ones,I tried to censure myself as much as possible. I will however defer to Uncle Bill's best judgement.
_ Finally and for the records, Bob is not some psycho but a dedicated soldier doing his job as ordered. He indicated that he had no other choices but to let "Siru" do his job that way. He also expressed sincere regrets that Bubba did not react like in the movie and dropped the matter there and then.
__________________
Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear get you!
Last edited by Pierre on 04-05-2002 at 03:47 AM
Bonjour all,
Been a long time I posted anything since I was travelling extensively but I am back...with some interesting news!
Some of you might remember that back a few months ago, my 20" Sirupati took a separate way when seen on the wall of my office by a visiting SF friend {let's call him Bob}. Knowing that he was on his way to a place where cold nights and no-so nice people are presently causing a lot of trouble, I could not do anything but avoid to leave him "naked". I (tearfully) said goodbye to my Sirupati, hoping the Gods will some days reward my gesture.
Back to a few days ago...
I got a phone call from a friendly voice [Bob] asking me to meet him in DC for lunch. He was in town for a few days. Being the cheap goat that I am, I never turn down a free lunch even if the train fare cost more than the meal. I met with Bob, not so tan after all, but really please that the weather in DC that day was 42 C.
-"Feels like summer to me compare to where I just came from ! By the way, Pierre let me tell you about your, I mean, my blade and how we learned to make friends"
Seems like Bob was enjoying his vacation and doing some side road touring when he came upon a known hornets' nest. (9 big ones to be honest). Being the good patriot that Bob is, he would have felt guilty to waste all the taxpayers' money spent on his training, considering especially that said hornets were trying really hard to permanently sting him and his 2 other tourists friends. With two of them injured, they still managed to dispatch to a friendlier place 7 of the bugs. Now this is where technology and simplicity meet. Bob's hornet dispatching tool being made in USA has a lot of small moving FRAGILE parts that tend to NOT like dirt, cold weather etc. While he can cut the mustache of a flea on a yack' butt at 600 yards, there are times when an AK 74 (field strip in 6 basic parts)looks like a wonder of German enginering!
"Here I am with that %$#^#$%@ piece of @%#$& trying to fix it when the two last bugs come rushing at me. One decide to leave for a friendlier place after my driver manage to give him a third eye but he is out of ammo and tourist 2 is to far to reach and temporarily out of commission. Looks like Bubba in a rush to get himself a yankee forgot to remove the safety or for whatever reasons the Gods are smiling on me that day. In despair, Bubba throw away his weapon and pull out what looks like a vey sharp toohpick.
Flashback to Crocodile Dundee II [for those of us who saw the movie] "Thats not a knife, mate, THAT is a knife!"
Turns out that Bubba is either not a big Paul Hogan's fan or that he was not allowed to see the movie till the end of the scene. Standing close by my side is your, euuuhh, MY sirupati who is dying to take a fresh breath of cold moutain air. I therefor oblige. Bubba's eyes go from sneaky and mean to "Holy cow, I 've got a problem". Yet Bubba rushes me trying to give me the benefit of an unwanted button hole. A kiss from the (MY) blade on his right arm reminds him 21 stiches later that I get very offended by unwanted tailoring. Bubba is now really upset....and bloody, yet picks up the toothpick from the ground with his other hand and rushes me again. Metal sparks, clinging and toothpick blade neatly broken in 1/2 now rests on the grounds of those peacefull moutains. Bubba jumps sideways to grab a fallen gun, hoping to convince me that I REALLY need a butthon hole in my stomach but doing so for a split second exposes his right calf muscle. Ouch! Siru bites him really hard to the bone and sentence him to stay in the same place until I secure him.
Siru 2, Yankees 9 (7+2) Hornets 0.
Medic will gracefully add another 19 stiches to his leg (I believe he will be lucky if he just limps forever)while cursing me for additional unneeded work!
Back to camp. Visit from the boss.
-"What the hell did you use on that poor fellow. Do you realize what @#^%& we could be in if a reporter gets wind of this. I can see headlines " Dirty Yankees provides friendly locals with HALAL meat" What the hell where you thinking??? I want a full report...NOW"
-"Yes Sir. Well you see..... Blah Blah Blah....This is when Siru came to our rescue and managed to get us all out of trouble, SIR"
- " Well finally a local that can fight without screwing up. Where is the "Sea rough party" now?
-"Right here, SIR" and Bob proceed to pull out the blade again.
-"what in Gemini Cricket's smashing jockstraps is THAT???"
- "THAT, SIR, IS THE RESULT OF HUNDRED YEARS OF CRAFTMANSHIP AND A FEW HOURS OF PRIDE. THAT,SIR,IS ALSO WHY I LIKE A US CITIZEN NAMED PIERRE VERY MUCH RIGHT NOW".
The look on the officer's face was really worth it, I was told
_ "Get rid of it right away.... No wait... Just make sure it does not see a camera from too close"
_ "YEEESSSSSSSS SIIIIRRRR"
- "euuuhhhhhh Bob, do you know where I can get me one of these???"
_ I'll be happy to check, Sir,........ but it's gonna cost you"
I have now unlimited beer credit for life! Thank you Uncle Bill
==================================================
====================
A couple of points:
-Name, places have been changed to protect Bob and his friends, however the story is REAL!
-The language is as close as possible from my recollection of Bob's story. Keep in mind that Bob does not have a PHD in English litterature but he had (quite) a few beers and always displays a sick sense of Humor.
_ Knowing that our readerships includes some young ones,I tried to censure myself as much as possible. I will however defer to Uncle Bill's best judgement.
_ Finally and for the records, Bob is not some psycho but a dedicated soldier doing his job as ordered. He indicated that he had no other choices but to let "Siru" do his job that way. He also expressed sincere regrets that Bubba did not react like in the movie and dropped the matter there and then.
__________________
Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear get you!
Last edited by Pierre on 04-05-2002 at 03:47 AM
not2sharp
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 1999
- Messages
- 19,879
The Sirupati is a traditional knife of Nepal. A faster version of the Khukuri that works well as a fighter or machete. This is the 20 inch version made by H.I.
The two smaller pieces are an integral part of most khukuri sets. One is a well tempered utility knife while the other is a burnisher.
n2s
p.s. one2gofst, Pierre (another BF member) was the good friend who loaned his buddy the knife. I just though the story was worth sharing.
The two smaller pieces are an integral part of most khukuri sets. One is a well tempered utility knife while the other is a burnisher.
n2s
p.s. one2gofst, Pierre (another BF member) was the good friend who loaned his buddy the knife. I just though the story was worth sharing.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2001
- Messages
- 1,536
Ah, I did not realize it was a Khurki. Out of curiousity, does your friend have specialized training in use of such a large bladed implement as a weapon? I think that would be interesting to know considering how important most members (myself included) think proper training in use of the weapons one carries is. Thanks for the picture.
not2sharp
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 1999
- Messages
- 19,879
The khukuri is a very instinctive knife. When you use it as a tool it will give you good feedback on how to use it. I don't believe there is a formal martial art, although the Sirupati is popular with martial artist. Bando works with khukuries, but the Gurkhas don't get any formal training with the knives.
n2s
n2s