The Fighting Knife in modern warfare

I maintain that modern infantry only need a stout fixed utility knife, SAK or Multitool and a folder and even then probably not all of them at once. I'm fond of CR Projects. Most fixed knives can be used as a dagger when push comes to shove.

WWII, where bolt actions were the norm, the chances of H2H were much higher than today. Every enemy is now equipped with fully automatic weapons making it very dangerous to get close. An eight year old child soldier at close range is leathal. Artillery, gunships, rockets, tanks, machineguns and grenades come first before riflefire. However, in the chaos of battle, invariably its not too difficult to get too close but thats why you are issued an assault rifle. When the rifle fails, your battle partner should be covering you; if not, a handgun is still the better backup over a knife and even then you might just club the ****.

At night is the time when close contact is a real possibility. Yes, silencers, sound moderators, may be the bizz, but they are as rare as rocking horse **** even to those who might have access to them. Moderated weapon systems need subsonic ammunition to be any good and are fairly tempermental unless a bolt action (such as the De Lyle??). They don't like been used much as they wear out and a half decent moderator is bulky to the point that not everyone wants to carry one. More importantly the soldier carrying this specialised kit is all too often at the back; well not where the action is that second. This is where there is an argument for a silent weapon for those troops who specialise at working at night, recce pln. The simplest, lightest, cheapest and most reliable is a dagger, and everone can have one. Not for knife fighting but ambush and to kill the enemy. The training is not too hard; its the iron balls to match thats the hard part. Daggers should be longish to penetrate where it matters and tough enough not to break from lateral stresses. Old bayonets are often just the thing - with some work. My favorite dagger was Al Mar's larger Shadow; well long, slim and sharpy.

Finally, commanders in peace time don't like knives because boys being boys will find ways of sticking themselves or their friends if given enough time. Its a bit late after the event and the paperwork is horrendous :( ;)
 
I think that Sierra912's response is well said.It is better to have the equipment at your disposal the one time you need it than not.I
have had one of those occasions myself.Back in the Marine Corps days
after a small unit engagement while searching bodies for intel,many weapons were on the ground one of the not so dead guys was going for a grenade.Knife at hand dispatched and I am still typing so well worth the one time you need it.
 
Disclaimer: I've never done this. I was lucky enough in all my time in two branchs to never get sent to a war, police action, whatever.

But I seem to rember not only from training, Corps School and victims that pulling the head back makes for a lot more sawing. IIRC you are going for the carotid arteries (one on each side.) Hyperextending the neck PULLS THESE BACK and they're protected by the trachea (cartilidge) and muscles of the neck.
 
I agree with Greenjacket. Unless an Infantryman is part of a special unit (LRRP, etc.) a "fighting knife" will most likely never be used for its intended purpose. A good fixed blade utility knife will, however.

I also agree that a handgun is a far better backup than a knife. For example, I never saw anyone go into a tunnel with just a flashlight and a knife.

Personally, rather than carry a sidearm, I would rather carry the equivalent weight in rifle ammo.
 
Well, I actually attended a sentry-removal class in the Corps.
They said nooo throat-cutting: the sound of blood going down the trachea while air comes up tends to attract unwanted attention.
They taught tomahawk, club, big rock or rifle butt to the base of the neck.
They taught Gerber to one of the kidneys.
They taught an interesting forearm to neck thing that seemed highly dubious to me.

They also said we would have an almost zero chance of sneaking up on a sentry and, if we somehow did, we would probably screw it up anyway, so forget about all these sentry-removal stunts we had spent the day learning (orders say we gotta teach you maggots this crap).
If we had such great clandestine-movement skills, why not just sneak past the bastid, leave him in place (the corporal of the guard appreciates finding live sentries when he makes his rounds), and do whatever we came to do anyway?
 
Oh yeah: fighting knife in modern warfare.
In all the excitement I forgot to address the subject.

A person needs a fighting knife when has used up all the rest of his resources.
When it gets to that, a person wants the best knife possible, and not the USMC folding-knife/can-opener.
Even if it never gets to that, it helps to know one has covered all of the coverable bases.
Talisman?
OK if it works.

I have the personal acquaintance of a man who ran out of ammunition two days into a three-day fire fight.
He doesn't remember, or maybe he doesn't want to remember, how he survived.
His buddies remember, though, and he got the Navy Cross.
 
Knife is used for more than "dispatching sentries" from cutting up local foods to opening crates and boxes to cutting rope,clearing lanes of fire,prying things open,scareing the beezeeus out of the indigs,who know you won't shoot while they rip you off!! But who are a blade culture and know what a cut is!!! A blade can be worn all the time and most guys are not going to take thier combat gear to the shiter/shower but will take their]rifle and a couple of frags.
 
Bill Bagwell has an interesting story on the value of a fighting knife in today's arena in the latest issue of SOF.

He overlooks the evolution of strategy and tactics that firearms revolutionized over the era of blade warfare and cultures, but his premise regarding the merit of a good fighting knife and thoughtful training in how to use such a weapon is sound.

I did manage a respectful smile when I noted the photo of Bill teaching SF personnel at Ft. Bragg in bowie knife fighting techniques and doctrine. By all accounts the class was well received and the students enjoyed both it and Bill immensely. One of them related his experience to a retired SF senior NCO afterward. The listener, a rather gifted H2H player himself and mighty fine rifle shot as well, offered that he and his bowie knife toting friend should step out back.

The bowie advocate was provided, as I best recall the story, a training "knife" of bowie proportions. The retired veteran secured his wooden Bokken (Japanese training sword) from the house and they squared off. In short, as the storyteller related to me, he soundly proved that a wooden stick handily beat a bowie knife each and every time.

His more relevant lesson to his fellow trooper was this.

It is not enough to simply possess the weapon. One must first be capable of fighting and fighting to win, and then capable of applying the weapon under the appropriate circumstances with a master's eye and touch. Strategy, tactics, and technique when matched with hardwon skills and a fighter's determination are what carries the day.

With these one becomes effective in the offense and defense regardless of the weapon at hand.

I recommend reading Bill's article. It is thought provoking and very well presented.
 
I'm coming to this conversation late, but wanted to put in my two cents. During and after the Vietnam war a I put a lot of thought into this subject.

Soldiers in the field use a knife of three basic configuration: Pure weapon; general utility; and large, "camp knife." The trouble is, it is impossible to design a knife that can do all three things well--by emphasizing some aspect, you always lose in the other. I decided that the kind of knife carried should be dictated by the mission. If you are going in on a short term, LRRP/commando style mission that might actually require you attempt taking out someone quietly (Strider is exactly right in his post, this is VERY difficult, especially the "quietly" part), then there should be some people carrying "knife-as-weapon" style blades. The knife I designed for this during the VN war was based on the V-42 which had the spiked skull crusher. Like some others here I had decided that my tactics would be a strike to the skull to stun or kill, then an attack with the blade, all the while trying to keep the enemy quiet. You also have to remember that the enemy I was fighting at the time dressed lightly, and seldom wore a steel helmet. I think that a double edged, dagger style blade makes the best pure weapon style knife. Remember that there really aren't any knife fights in modern combat (one party will always have something better, like a rifle), so you don't need a "fighting knife."

In a general utility style combat knife you want a knife that is handy for field chores, but still has some use as a weapon. Knifes like Randall 14, Kabar, even the M3. Blade length from 4-7 inches. This is what you should carry if you are spending long periods in the field and a lot of field craft will be necessary (For example, Special Forces guerrilla warfare mission.) Everyone should also carry a folding pocket knife of some sort.

The large knife (machete or camp knife) will also be needed during these missions which require long periods in the bush. You will only need one of these per squad or SF A-team, and the duty of lugging it around can be rotated. As has been noted, these big knives can make wicked weapons, but you have to have room to wield one, something that can be problematical in jungle environment. Leigh
 
I think every Soldier/Sailor/Airman/Marine/Coastie should carry a locking one-hander or small fixed blade knife.
And multi-tools are definitely worth their weight.
But fighting knives/daggers/bayonet? I don't see much need for them.

A pistol is unbeatable for up close and personal fighting, but even an entrenching-tool is better than a knife.

Good luck,
Allen.
 
Allen,

You are probably right about an e-tool being a better weapon than a knife, but who the hell wants to collect entrenching tools?
 
The "fighting" knife in modern combat may indeed be passe. However, if my fanny were out in harms way I would still want a capable knife for just the odd chance use in a last ditch effort. After all they still put cannon on today's modern jet fighter. ;)
 
wlf, you got me back onto this one.

I had a 1960's V-42 made by Long?, and gave it away :( Wish I hadn't.

So many missions are now made from secure long term base camps that it is more than ever posible to choose ones blade for a particular mission. There is so much transport you don't even have to worry about carrying your kit to the next theatre. However, I still maintain that knives are personal thing and not very important in the bigger picture.

Daggers still have that fear factor: any enemy just doesn't like the though of being stuck by one. The Germans in WWII copied and issued F/S commando knives as a morale booster to their coastal defence troops in responce to the Commando raids.
 
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