Why doesnt Survive offer any FFG options?

T

Tachead7075

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Apr 7, 2016
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Hey guys, I am just wondering why Survive chooses saber grinds for all their knives? Why no full flat grinds? Many people prefer them and they offer better performance for many tasks. I really think they would sell well and many people including myself would be interested in this grind option. Thanks Guy & Ellie and keep up the good work:thumbup:
 
Since I've seem Guy doing pull ups with his knives, I don't think that the FFG can handle all 140 Lbs of him :D :D :D

Sorry Guy, I was just kidding! LOL!

But seriously, I honestly don't think that FFG will offer the toughness of the Saber grind. Survive! gets the crucial desired combination of blade toughness and lethal cutting abilities through its saber grind.
 
Casinostocks said:
Since I've seem Guy doing pull ups with his knives, I don't think that the FFG can handle all 140 Lbs of him :D :D :D

Sorry Guy, I was just kidding! LOL!

But seriously, I honestly don't think that FFG will offer the toughness of the Saber grind. Survive! gets the crucial desired combination of blade toughness and lethal cutting abilities through its saber grind.
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I have to disagree. While FFGs may not be quite as tough as a saber grinds, they are still more then tough enough and should handle anything most normal users can throw at them. Just look at the Esee 4/6 and Becker BK16 for instance(some of the most popular knives in this class), they handle all manner of use and even abuse and are just plain old 1095. 3V is much tougher then 1095 so with the same geometry it should take even more rough use. Normal hard use, chopping, and batoning should be a piece of cake and they would have the additional benefits of the FFG like better slicing and carving ability due to the more acute grind geometry.

I think at least one model in FFG would be a great addition to their lineup myself.
 
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The simple answer is because Guy likes a saber grind!

Seriously thiugh. He runs the edge shoulders thinner than most companies knives. I think this has more affect on performance than raising the grind 1/4-3/8 of an inch. Compare an ESEE 6 and a GSO 5.1. Both great knives and I have had both. (Still have my 5.1). The feel that 5.1 outslices the E6 easily. This is because the grind is thinner behind the edge on the 5.1 even though its a high saber and not a full flat like the E6. It is my personal belief that Guy has struck a good balance between toughness and slice ability buy using a saber grind. Check out the upcoming 4.5 Bushcraft. Its gonna be a laser beam
 
Survive! is a small company and I am sure that they have some other great ideas which will have be put on the back burner, because those ideas may conflict with their current business philosophy in so far as Survive!'s current and future revenues are concerned.

I have had quite a few ESEE models in the past and currently went out on Amazon and got a Junglas to quench my big knife thirst after I fell short off the mark with preordering a GSO 12. That said with all due respect to ESEE and ESEE enthusiasts, there are a few
quantum leaps difference between Survive! and ESEEs of the knife paradigm.

To get back on topic, even my Junglas is a high saber grind, which begs me a question or two: are you concerned about slicing ability of Survive! knives? I have nothing against FFG grind and I love it on my Spyderco PM-2 and such but I personally would NOT want
a true FFG on a survival knife if that was the last knife I had to have. Full disclosure, I got rid of all the smaller ESEE models I used to have because I was not enamored with any of them but the Junglas is a respectable poor man's substitute as compared to say some
larger Busse models and perhaps even a pure chopper than the GSO 10.

In conclusion, I am afraid that you and I will just have to agree to disagree on the desirability of FFG on larger knives other than the cost factor (in combination with less superior steel) which bring about their popularity in the commercial realm.
 
Riz! said:
The simple answer is because Guy likes a saber grind!

Seriously thiugh. He runs the edge shoulders thinner than most companies knives. I think this has more affect on performance than raising the grind 1/4-3/8 of an inch. Compare an ESEE 6 and a GSO 5.1. Both great knives and I have had both. (Still have my 5.1). The feel that 5.1 outslices the E6 easily. This is because the grind is thinner behind the edge on the 5.1 even though its a high saber and not a full flat like the E6. It is my personal belief that Guy has struck a good balance between toughness and slice ability buy using a saber grind. Check out the upcoming 4.5 Bushcraft. Its gonna be a laser beam
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Guy did comment a while back that he didn't want to produce FFG based on the philosophy of using the knives really hard, that his grinds were too thin to provide an FFG with the lateral strength he wanted them to have. Maybe one day he'll change his mind, I certainly prefer the aesthetics of FFG... But like Riz! wrote, the GSO-5.1 out-slices the ESEE with ease because of the behind-the-edge thickness:

new%2BGSO%2Bgeometry%2Bcomparison.png



The FFG Becker BK16 takes less cutting effort than my SK-4.7, but only after being stripped and ground to comparable edge-thickness, and I would not trust it to have the same lateral strength. Geometry is king:

new%2BGSO%2Bgeometry%2Bcomparison%2B2.png
 
It's meaningless to talk about FFG vs saber ground without reference to the stock thickness. A FFG blade in 1/4" stock could have exactly the same cutting geometry as a saber ground blade in 3/16" stock. I suspect the geometry is similar on most GSO knives, and chosen because Guy considers it a good balance of cutting ability and strength.
 
Brummie said:
It's meaningless to talk about FFG vs saber ground without reference to the stock thickness. A FFG blade in 1/4" stock could have exactly the same cutting geometry as a saber ground blade in 3/16" stock. I suspect the geometry is similar on most GSO knives, and chosen because Guy considers it a good balance of cutting ability and strength.
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What he said
 
I think a little too much emphasis is put on strength with many of these survival/hard use knives though guys. Remember a knife is designed to cut/slice first and foremost and sacrificing cutting ability for strength can be counter productive to a knifes whole reason/purpose. How strong does a knife need to be really? Not everyone needs a knife to baton knotty oak logs, smash concrete, and cut nails(Busse already has this covered lol). Plus, I find that strength can often be a bandaid for lack of skill personally. That's why many users can do any normal bushcraft/outdoor task with a much weaker knife like Mora without any strength issues. Aside from Youtube cowboys beating on knives for the hell of it, most users dont need anywhere near the strength level many knives in this genre offer imo.

Survive is also using better steel and heat treatment then many other companies so I think they could really capitalize on those qualities. Due to the added toughness and wear resistance of well heat treated 3V over 1095(what many other blades in this genre are made of), Guy should be able to make a FFG blade like an Esee 4/6/BK 16(since we were using those examples) but, make it of thinner stock and make it thinner behind the edge all while achieving the same or higher strength with much better edge retention. Add that to Survives amazing fit and finish and Guy and Ellie's great customer service and you would have a real winner imo.

I already really like Survive knives but, I just think some FFG options would be awesome. I think they could have even better cutting geometry with a minimal effect on strength. Even just one model would be a nice addition to their lineup imo. I think the 4.5 Bushcraft Knife, or something similar, would be a good FFG candidate. It would be a great camp/hunting knife and excel at general camp/hunting tasks, food prep, game processing, exc. I dont think I would be the only one interested in purchasing a Survive knife like this but, I could be wrong.
 
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rxavage said:
i dont think youve been listening or reading the responses...
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I did read the responses and have been listening. I just think a FFG blade is better for many tasks. A FFG blade of the same stock width/thickness and thickness behind the edge will always be a better at certain tasks like slicing. I would gladly trade a bit of strength for better slicing exc. As I said, I think most blades in this genre are far stronger then they need to be already anyway. YMMV. Plus, why not have a FFG option? Do you not think it would be a good complement to the already great Survive line? Not every knife needs to be a sharpened prybar. That is likely why the 4.5 Bushcraft is being made. Diversity and variety is the spice of life.
 
Here is something to help you out with:

[video]https://youtu.be/up4THkDknSE?t=708[/video]

You can go to the beginning if you'd like.
 
Tachead,

I do agree with you that many knofe companies are too worried about toughness. I also agree that some you tube guys have inadvertantly caused this emphasis buy beating the F out of their tools to show what it could really handle. I especially dont get it with thick bladed folders. 1/8 inch is thick enough, especially with high end steels. Where many youtubers fall short is just documenting actual use. Many folks are starting the push back toward thinner blades and companies that are on the forefront are responding. Survive with the 4.5 and Bark River with their Lt versions, which are thinner stock options of standard offerings like the bravo1, aurora and canadian specials.

I think once users realize what they will actually do with their blades, they dont need fat spines. I went through this evolution too. I always wanted a strider tanto. I thought I could survive the F out of anything until I realized it wouldnt cut a fresh turd! I could pry open a safe with it but forget cutting an apple or making a feather stick. I evolved through many different syles, grinds and profiles of blades to where I am now. I would always have a combo of or all pf the following tools with me on a hike, camping, hunting or fishing trip... A 4-5 inch fixed blade, a folding saw, a tomahawk/hatchet, and either a folding blade or neck knife or multitoool. When I look at Guy's design philosophy I realize he designed his bigger knoves to be one tool options (gso 5.1 and up), his medium knives (4.1, 4.7 and 5.0)and to be pressed into a one tool option, but are optimized when combined with other tools like a saw or hawk and his small stuff to be support blades/chore cutters. Then there is the 4.5 which I believe will become my favorite, because I truly like a knife for cutting and will use specific tools for other tasks like chopping and splitting. My ultimate combo will be the 4.5 + my tomahawk and maybe a saw.

Ultimately Guy's company may offer thinner and FFG and even kitchen knives, but right now they dont have the production capacity to make that many models or options. I hope one day he does...

Now when will my 4.5 arrive???
 
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And forgive my typos. Im on my phone and my thumbs are too swole to type withoutnhitting the wrong letter.
 
Riz! said:
Tachead,

I do agree with you that many knofe companies are too worried about toughness. I also agree that some you tube guys have inadvertantly caused this emphasis buy beating the F out of their tools to show what it could really handle. I especially dont get it with thick bladed folders. 1/8 inch os thick enough, especially with high end steels. Where many youtubers fall short is just documenting actual use. Many folks are starting the push back toward thinner blades and companies that are on the forefront are responding. Survive with the 4.5 and Bark River with their Lt versions, which are thinner stock options of standard offerings like the bravo1, aurora and canadian specials.

I think once users realize what they will actually do with their blades, they dont need fat spines. I went through this evolution too. I always wanted a strider tanto. I thought I could survive the F out of anything until I realized it wouldnt cut a fresh turd! I could pry open a safe with it but forget cutting an apple or making a feather stick. I evolved through many different syles, grinds and profiles of blades to where I am now. I would always have a combo of or all pf the following tools with me on a hike, camping, hunting or fishing trip... A 4-5 inch fixed blade, a folding saw, a tomahawk/hatchet, and either a folding blade or neck knife or multitoool. When I look at Guy's design philosophy I realize he designed his bigger knoves to be one tool options (gso 5.1 and up), his medium knives (4.1, 4.7 and 5.0)and to be pressed into a one tool option, but are optimized when combined with other tools like a saw or hawk and his small stuff to be support blades/chore cutters. Then there is the 4.5 which I believe will become my favorite, because I truly like a knife for cutting and will use specific tools for other tasks like chopping and splitting. My ultimate combo will be the 4.5 + my tomahawk and maybe a saw.

Ultimately Guy's company may offer thinner and FFG and even kitchen knoves, but right now they dont have the production capacity to male that mamy models or options. I hope one day he does...

Now when will my 4.5 arrive???
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Yeah, I think most of those Youtube cowboys are silly. I learned that the square peg shouldnt be forced into the round hole when I was in kindergarden lol. I believe in using the right tool for the job and being smart with your tools. Some people would be surprised what you can do with a small thin knife if you are careful and tactful and it is all you have.

I too went through a similar evolution and pack similarly. I am starting to lean more towards thinner more efficient blades these days. I still have a few beefy blades but, doubt I will buy any more.

I hope one day he does as well. I sure like what he offers as a company so far.

I may have to try out the 4.5 too. I will wait for some reviews.
 
Tachead: I wasn't trying to imply that you were a knife rookie, but merely pointing out that these issues have been raised and the bladesmiths at BHK are commonly respected in the knife culture. I feel badly if it came across the way it was NOT intended to!

That said, you have to realize and understand that for a very small knife making company with an uber perfectionist bladesmith what is feasible to them makes it crucial to their viability and financial survival. This is the point that both Riz! and I have stated
before in different ways but you seemingly chose to overlook. Before FFG, there were talks about a Scandi grind but Ellie had explained in a recent post that project also had to be shelved for the time being. It was a combination of inve$tment plus Guy not
be convinced and satisfied about the grind. In most opinion, he already has a winner design concept on his hand at very reasonable prices (underpriced IMHO) when compared to similar competitors and with all due respect, knives from
TOPS, ESEE, Becker are not in the same altitude!

As for some reviews of the 4.5 BC, I am quite sure that Survive! will send some out to Youtubers such as Black Scout Survival and alike, but I think that will be in the farther future. There is nothing from Survive!'s past to extrapolate some experience from
as I think that the 4.5 BC may be their thinnest slicer, but perhaps I could be wrong. The Forum veterans would know more about a comparable past model than I would.
 
I would like to ask, Tachead, what knife do you think they should offer a FFG on, and what should they change the thickness to? Why?

I think we need some specifics here to make this a more useful conversation.
 
My thoughts on this are that, just like the aforementioned statement about uber blade strength and increased stock thickness being overkill for most users, so are these small differences in performance for various grinds. Unless your requirements are very specific or a very narrow performance profile is absolutely necessary, a full flat grind and a saber grind on similar knives are going to produce fairly similar results for most tasks. Discussing it in the context of general usage almost seems like noodling for the sake of noodling. I know that's what we all love to do with our tools and hobbies...geek out...but realistically, it's splitting hairs most of the time.
 
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