Why doesnt Survive offer any FFG options?

[JustinFournier]

Personally I prefer Saber to FFG for no reason other than the flat even surface to mount in my wicked edge. Lots of times the FFG is thick behind the edge, and everytime you sharpen it, it only ever gets wider. Also, the weight.

I really like a large hollow on my pocket knife as it's almost always for slicing or cutting.

I think the thinner ground saber of the GSOs for example 5.1 vs the ESEE 6, provides better cutting performance, the thickness between the edge of the grind and the spine provides more lateral strength, and the 5.1 is lighter. I don't see any advantage to going FFG.

 

[Tachead7075]

Tachead: I wasn't trying to imply that you were a knife rookie, but merely pointing out that these issues have been raised and the bladesmiths at BHK are commonly respected in the knife culture. I feel badly if it came across the way it was NOT intended to!

That said, you have to realize and understand that for a very small knife making company with an uber perfectionist bladesmith what is feasible to them makes it crucial to their viability and financial survival. This is the point that both Riz! and I have stated
before in different ways but you seemingly chose to overlook. Before FFG, there were talks about a Scandi grind but Ellie had explained in a recent post that project also had to be shelved for the time being. It was a combination of inve$tment plus Guy not
be convinced and satisfied about the grind. In most opinion, he already has a winner design concept on his hand at very reasonable prices (underpriced IMHO) when compared to similar competitors and with all due respect, knives from
TOPS, ESEE, Becker are not in the same altitude!

As for some reviews of the 4.5 BC, I am quite sure that Survive! will send some out to Youtubers such as Black Scout Survival and alike, but I think that will be in the farther future. There is nothing from Survive!'s past to extrapolate some experience from
as I think that the 4.5 BC may be their thinnest slicer, but perhaps I could be wrong. The Forum veterans would know more about a comparable past model than I would.

No offense taken, thanks for clarifying.

I get what you and Riz are saying but, I dont see making a ffg option being a bad business decision. I think they would sell just fine. Many people prefer a FFG over a saber grind. Really, a ffg is better at most things other then batoning and only sacrifices a bit of overall strength. FFG is likely the most common knife grind on the planet(especially when kitchen cutlery is taken into account). Scandi grind is a niche grind so I understand Guy's concern. Producing a scandi ground blade would be a lot more of a risk then producing a FFG one imo. I do like the saber grind and would never want him to stop making them. I just think the FFG is better suited to smaller blades myself due to them not needing as much strength and them being tailored more towards cutting, carving, slicing, food prep, exc. vs batoning and chopping. I prefer saber generally for larger blades however.

 

[Tachead7075]

I would like to ask, Tachead, what knife do you think they should offer a FFG on, and what should they change the thickness to? Why?

I think we need some specifics here to make this a more useful conversation.

I prefer FFG on smaller blades personally(4.5" or less). I dont have a particular thickness but, 1/8" is usually thick enough for most tasks that I use a small knife for. I find my Esee 4 at 3/16" overly thick for most tasks. "why?" Because thinner FFG blades at the same stock width/thickness and thickness behind the edge or less will always be better slicers and I find them to be better/more efficient for most small knife tasks. They are also lighter and only sacrifice a small amount of strength as a trade off.

 

[Tachead7075]

My thoughts on this are that, just like the aforementioned statement about uber blade strength and increased stock thickness being overkill for most users, so are these small differences in performance for various grinds. Unless your requirements are very specific or a very narrow performance profile is absolutely necessary, a full flat grind and a saber grind on similar knives are going to produce fairly similar results for most tasks. Discussing it in the context of general usage almost seems like noodling for the sake of noodling. I know that's what we all love to do with our tools and hobbies...geek out...but realistically, it's splitting hairs most of the time.

I bet if you were to cut a potato, piece of cheese, apple, exc. with two knives at the same stock thickness and width and same thickness behind the edge(one in FFG and one in saber grind) you would notice the difference.

 

[rswanson]

I bet if you were to cut a potato, piece of cheese, apple, exc. with two knives at the same stock thickness and width and same thickness behind the edge(one in FFG and one in saber grind) you would notice the difference.

Oh, I do notice the difference. It's just usually fairly minimal for knives of the same class and materials. My point is that discussing these small differences doesn't have as much application as we sometimes think when we're frothing over our toys. But I get that it's all part of the fun.

 

[Tachead7075]

Personally I prefer Saber to FFG for no reason other than the flat even surface to mount in my wicked edge. Lots of times the FFG is thick behind the edge, and everytime you sharpen it, it only ever gets wider. Also, the weight.

I really like a large hollow on my pocket knife as it's almost always for slicing or cutting.

I think the thinner ground saber of the GSOs for example 5.1 vs the ESEE 6, provides better cutting performance, the thickness between the edge of the grind and the spine provides more lateral strength, and the 5.1 is lighter. I don't see any advantage to going FFG.

I prefer saber for larger knives and FFG for smaller ones. I agree FFG can be trickier to sharpen on some systems though(there are work arounds though). Them being thicker behind the edge is just the makers choice of geometry, they dont have to be. A saber actually gets thicker more quickly as you sharpen it. A FFG blade is lighter then a saber ground one(all of these facts are assuming the blades are made from the same stock thickness/width and thickness behind the edge of course).

A hollow grind is only better for slicing thin materials(half the primary grind width or less approx.). FFG is better for thicker materials.

 

[JustinFournier]

I prefer FFG on smaller blades personally(4.5" or less). I dont have a particular thickness but, 1/8" is usually thick enough for most tasks that I use a small knife for. I find my Esee 4 at 3/16" overly thick for most tasks. "why?" Because thinner FFG blades at the same stock width/thickness and thickness behind the edge or less will always be better slicers and I find them to be better/more efficient for most small knife tasks. They are also lighter and only sacrifice a small amount of strength as a trade off.

I understand now. IME not all FFG and Saber are ground the same. I think geometry trumps grind here. My limited experience with FFG in my few Strider SNGs have the slicing efficiency of old rebar compared to my 3.5, which cuts poorly compared to my Sebenza 25. If we're talking small blade slicing/cutting, thick FFG or Saber is certainly low on my list. Monkeying with them might get to a 3 or 4 out of 10 for slicing/cutting, I would rather just start with something already on the 8-9 range. I think the saber of the GSO line is not designed to be king slicer, it's to be a survival blade and to suck as little as possible at slicing. I don't think going FFG will make it so much better at slicing, that it's worth the loss in strength, because strength is prioritized over slicing here. I'm not speaking for S!K here, but I would give this answer as to why I think they don't offer a FFG at this time. I could be way wrong.

 

[Tachead7075]

Oh, I do notice the difference. It's just usually fairly minimal for knives of the same class and materials. My point is that discussing these small differences doesn't have as much application as we sometimes think when we're frothing over our toys. But I get that it's all part of the fun.

I get your point and agree. But, for small knives, I want the best performance possible and see no need need for the extra strength that a saber grind offers. Why trade cutting efficiency for strength when it is not needed? There is a reason why pretty much every kitchen and chef knife on the planet is FFG. On 4.5"+ knives I do really think that the added strength and better batoning performance that a saber grind offers is warranted though. I would just like to see one FFG option in a smaller blade size for certain tasks in addition to what they already offer. I do think SK already has a great combo. No need to change what is already great.

 

[rswanson]

I would just like to see one FFG option in a smaller blade size for certain tasks in addition to what they already offer. I do think SK already has a great combo. No need to change what is already great.

Agreed! Maybe one day that will be an option but I feel Guy's aesthetic and design paradigm will have to tilt in a different direction before we see this. And, it seems there are already a lot of plates spinning at Survive! so its probably just a case of trying to get ahead of the production schedule as much as anything else.

One thing seems apparent with S!K though- they don't rest on their laurels and are always evolving the product line so if one is patient there's certainly a possibility of a seeing nice, slicey four inch blade with a flat grind, somewhere down the road.

 

[JustinFournier]

I get your point and agree. But, for small knives, I want the best performance possible and see no need need for the extra strength that a saber grind offers. Why trade cutting efficiency for strength when it is not needed? There is a reason why pretty much every kitchen and chef knife on the planet is FFG. On 4.5"+ knives I do really think that the added strength and better batoning performance that a saber grind offers is warranted though. I would just like to see one FFG option in a smaller blade size for certain tasks in addition to what they already offer. I do think SK already has a great combo. No need to change what is already great.

What is the reason so many kitchen knives are FFG? I thought one of the best selling knives in the US was the Cutco stuff, none of which I have seen is FFG. I figured most kitchen knives are stamped, and stamped is not better, it's cheaper. Cheaper knives have FFG?

 

[redwood22]

Man this thread got traction! I'm glad, new topic!!

I will admit I didn't read every post, but I do have another knife that comes in both, and as others have stated it really comes down to geometry. I think both could be successful and depending on the blade shape, both could look great. I think for survive right now limiting options might be better than adding them. That said, I could see this being an option in their super secret potential semi custom line.

 

[trevitrace]

I guess I'm more likely to encounter things other than a head of lettuce or a vidalia in the woods. Prefer something that combines qualities of different grinds and lends itself to equally unanticipated cutting needs.

 

[Tachead7075]

What is the reason so many kitchen knives are FFG? I thought one of the best selling knives in the US was the Cutco stuff, none of which I have seen is FFG. I figured most kitchen knives are stamped, and stamped is not better, it's cheaper. Cheaper knives have FFG?

Because FFGs are better for cutting and slicing. FFG blades are superior at pretty much all knife tasks over Saber ground with the exception of batoning. A Saber grind is better for batoning because of the wedging effect caused by the top of the primary grind where it meets the flat. It wedges the wood apart and stops the cutting edge from touching the wood saving the edge and lowering drag. Unfortunately this same effect is what makes them less efficient for many cutting tasks along with their less acute primary grinds. Saber grinds are mainly used for their added strength. The extra strength is debatably not need on a smaller knife made of an extremely tough steel like 3V however, especially when the right heat treatment/tempering is used.

Most Cutco kitchen knives are crap. Ask any chef or read on cutlery sites. They are made of cheap stamped 440A and are far from high quality. Most high quality kitchen/chefs knives are made of much better forged steels and are full flat ground.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

 

[Tachead7075]

I guess I'm more likely to encounter things other than a head of lettuce or a vidalia in the woods. Prefer something that combines qualities of different grinds and lends itself to equally unanticipated cutting needs.

FFGs are more efficient at almost all cutting tasks aside from batoning, which most people chose a larger knife for anyway(we are talking about sub 4.5" here), not just lettuce and onions although food prep is often a task a knife is needed for as well when outdoors.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

 

[B34NS]

Here's my field butcher kit from last year, Pro scalpel 3V (convex), GSO 3.5 (saber), PKF-50 (FFG)

In most cases it has less to do with the grind as much as it has to do with the thickness of the blade as well. Cooks prefer FFG in that being thinner is lighter and easier to apply proper food handling technique when slicing things for hours a day.

 

[Ifellonscissors]

He runs the edge shoulders thinner than most companies knives. I think this has more affect on performance than raising the grind 1/4-3/8 of an inch. Compare an ESEE 6 and a GSO 5.1. Both great knives and I have had both. (Still have my 5.1). The feel that 5.1 outslices the E6 easily. This is because the grind is thinner behind the edge on the 5.1 even though its a high saber and not a full flat like the E6. It is my personal belief that Guy has struck a good balance between toughness and slice ability buy using a saber grind. Check out the upcoming 4.5 Bushcraft. Its gonna be a laser beam

This. I completely agree that Survive! has found a great balance. Good points, Riz!

 

[Fancier]

There are options if you want a Survive with a FFG; we have makers in here that do regrinds.
Modification will probably invalidate your warranty so use caution.
Every design includes compromises, and a saber grind is a pretty popular compromise for a field knife.

I'm kind of curious about the grind angle on the proposed scandi. I've measured angles on production scandi's between between 13° and 25°, and that range can make a pretty big difference.
A common design philosophy seems to be to use relatively thin stock and a relatively high grind angle.
That keeps the width behind the bevel down and reduces the amount of grinding required.
That should reduce the production costs because you aren't buying a lot of metal just to grind it away.

 

[chiral.grolim]

There are options if you want a Survive with a FFG; we have makers in here that do regrinds.
Modification will probably invalidate your warranty so use caution.
Every design includes compromises, and a saber grind is a pretty popular compromise for a field knife.

I'm kind of curious about the grind angle on the proposed scandi. I've measured angles on production scandi's between between 13° and 25°, and that range can make a pretty big difference.
A common design philosophy seems to be to use relatively thin stock and a relatively high grind angle.
That keeps the width behind the bevel down and reduces the amount of grinding required.
That should reduce the production costs because you aren't buying a lot of metal just to grind it away.

I looked for it, found Guy's posts from the 4.5 thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...raft-Knife-(GSO-4-5-)?p=15049351#post15049351

Even not being a scandi, with this thin blade and tiny little edge I plan on putting on this model, it will perform very well. The saber grind angle is right around 10 degrees of included angle, so it will slip through material very efficiently.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...raft-Knife-(GSO-4-5-)?p=15354386#post15354386

This blade has right around 10 degrees of included angle on the primary bevel, with a very thin cutting edge for easy slicing and a deep bite. Being such a thin blade overall, with a saber style grind and very thin cutting edge shoulder, I just thought it was best to stick with CPM-3V only. With a 4.5" blade, quite a bit of force can be leveraged on it and I imagine, even though it is a "bushcraft" design, that some people will do some light batoning work and rougher chores with it. My steel selection really just has to do with my personal expectations of the blade.

and my own posts
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...raft-Knife-(GSO-4-5-)?p=15355934#post15355934

On a blade of this thickness, leaving a mid-height grind increases strength and reduces how much the blade is likely to flex in use.

Keep in mind that the primary grind is indicated as 10-inclusive which is normal for most of Guy's knives. A lot of Mora knives are closer to 20-inclusive (10-dps) and the Mora "heavy-duty" I have is 30-inclusive. So depending on how thin the blade of the 4.5 is behind the edge (with microbevel closer to 30-inclusive), the GSO may be thinner in much of the blade than even those Moras and certainly thinner than Guy's "heavier" knives including the Necker. But this in FFG would be a good step toward a line of kitchen-blades Change the blade shape to a modified wharncliffe or sheepsfoot, and you've got your paring/utility knife right there! But be nice to it, 3V ain't indestructible

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...raft-Knife-(GSO-4-5-)?p=15635956#post15635956

A quick diagram of bevel angles and mechanical advantage (slicing efficiency):

Keep in mind that the GSO-5.1 and others in the S!K line-up all feature primary bevels ~ 5-dps (10 inclusive). This new 4.5 features the same primary bevel angle BUT a much thinner edge if it is a zero-grind - the other knives feature a second "edge" bevel that is usually 15-20 dps (standard) and thickens the edge substantially for durability.

In comparison, a Mora Robust or "Heavy Duty" primary bevel is 27-inclusive and the standard Mora cutting edge is 20-23 inclusive, that is 10 degrees per side.
http://www.moraofsweden.se/knife-care


Look at that diagram above again and understand how 5-dps and 10-dps compare in terms of "sliciness", i.e. mechanical advantage. Guy is crazy. :thumbup:

I know you posted a bunch there as well, Fancier, so none of this is new to you, but it might help some others discussing FFG vs the saber-grinds currently produced by S!K.

I get what's being said, a S!K paring-knife would be great, and Guy has discussed (in that thread the posts I linked are from) a line of kitchen blades which might include some such thing. *shrug* I look forward to it :thumbup:

In the meantime, I got this knife from maker Tim Johnson (timos- here on BF) - ~3.5" blade, 0.11" stock, almost FFG, ~0.011 behind the edge, 60+ Rc AEB-L

What i will say is that 0.11" stock is rather thick for a kitchen knife, this is definitely built for harder outdoor use. The thing is, even though the grind on this blade is ~3 dps and the S!K blades are usually ~5 dps, the slicing performance behind the edge isn't all that different up to the same stock thickness. The primary difference in cutting ability comes up front wherein the wedge on the timos- blade fit easily inside that of the S!K blade. I reviewed a different blade from Tim here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...r-knives-and-a-TIMOS-handmade-knife-(feature)

In that review, i presented this schematic:

The primary-grind angle on the Izula, CalyIII, and timos- are all about the same, as is the edge-angle, but the slicing-ability is WORLDS APART because the thickness behind the edge is so different (0.005 vs 0.015 vs 0.030). In the schematic above with Mechanical Advantage, remember that the mechanical advantage of FFG only comes into play AFTER the cut gets there - in front of that FFG is the EDGE with its thickness and angle. If there is a significant difference in the edge-thickness or angle, that could drown out any advantage the lower FFG angle might have vs a saber-grind.

 

[SURVIVE! Ellie]

Guy can provide much better information on this topic, but it basically boils down to: Because he prefers the saber grind. He can tell you all about why.

I can approach the topic from the aspect of running a business though. While there may be a market for ffg SURVIVE!, we have no interest in branching into other knife markets right now. We are busy enough as it is.

 

[Tinbanger]

I just want to be able to cut my apple with my gso without it Spitting first! Haha

The struggle is real