2013 Christma/Winter KITH Final Edit of Rules

I've never participated in a KITH, primarily because if I sent out a nice bowie or hunter there was an equal chance I'd get back a file knife. I think that's what Willie was trying to address. But, I guess that's the nature of these things.
 
Actually sign me up for category 3 as well - I've got an idea for something for the free for all - I have an interesting old farm tool and will follow Alexander Weygers technique for HT and tempering unknown steel for a change.
 
I was thinking of trying a Damascus with a couple of recycled steels I have, but I won't commit to that until I have the other two ready. I have a pile of 1060, and 9260 in the shop, but who knows how useful it will be or if it will turn out with any contrast. Maybe.....
 
When you add all sorts of rules and separate things into fairly arbitrary "groups," it kills the spirit of these sorts of things. You don't participate in events like a "Secret Santa" because you want to get a really expensive or cool gift, you do it because it's fun to give a gift and because it's satisfying to receive a surprise. It's "Secret Santa," not "Secret Trade Lottery."

I'm of the opinion that a KITH should be one group, open to all skill levels, as unrestricted as possible. That way it's not just a bunch of dudes trading micarta neck knives for micarta neck knives and stabilized wood bowies for stabilized wood bowies. Let people (including yourselves) have some fun with it, and you'll probably get a lot more people who want to participate, and you'll get to see a lot more awesome stuff. If you look at it like you're "trading" a $300 bowie for a file knife, you're probably going to end up disappointed regardless and shouldn't participate.

Look at it as if you're giving someone a sweet gift, and you also get to receive a gift from someone that they made by hand, uniquely for you, to the best of their abilities. That to me is downright awesome regardless of whether the knife is "better" or "worse" than the one I gave to someone else. Some of my most cherished gifts are the ones with the lowest monetary values. Money is cheap, sentimental value is hard to come by.

Just my two cents.
 
There is a forum specifically for complaining. People had the choice to voice their concerns prior to this being started up, and the expectations are based on the concerns expressed to me. The division also mirrors the Shop talk/ Hammer and tongs division that was put on the members of this forum. Please sign up for the free for all group, and if that's what has the majority of people participating in, I will ask those who signed up for the other categories if they want to be part of the free for all group. When people had the chance to speak, this is what was wanted. I amended the expectations to broaden them and include items rarely shown by the regular members of this forum, and I think everyone could better spend their time making, and being charitable than complaining. People can choose to make a Bowie in any category if they want to. There is no cap, just a minimum. This is to address the concern that someone might enter a bogus entry for a shot at a free high end item. If that isn't going to be a problem, we can remove categories as needed. So far, only one person has signed up for the free for all category, so no one else is being as accepting as people state they want to be. If the majority of people sign up for free for all, the need for categories disappears.

I didn't take the concerns to mean people were expecting too much, but that it was a way to open up basic projects to newer makers who might have felt intimidated to submit a low experience project because it "might not be good enough." I have personally experienced this worry. To date, no one has posted an "I want to make a Bowie/sword/dagger etc. in the small knife class just to be in the giving spirit. It sounds more like "I want to make a small knife and have a chance at a great knife." This may not be it at all, but the complaining isn't coming from anyone who put their money where there mouth is and entered free for all. It just doesn't look good. I am all for removing the categories, but show its preferred. Commit to a complex project.
 
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Don't get me wrong Willie, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to set this up, and I know your intentions with the rules are all for a reason and from a good place. I especially don't mean to criticize you or be in any way offensive towards you. I'm just of the opinion that your intentions with the rules are a little misguided, and I'm voicing my concerns and consequently my reasoning for not personally participating. And from the looks of it, I'm not the only one interested in participating who is turned off by the setup.

It seems you're worried about people being greedy and submitting garbage just for an opportunity at a nice knife. I'm new around here so I don't know if that was an issue in the past, but honestly I have a bit more faith in the people here than that. I would like to believe that the people participating would put some honest effort forth. I'm a new maker myself, and you can be damn sure I'd put 100% of my effort forth in making the absolute best knife I've made yet, especially if there's a chance it'd be going to an extremely talented maker. There's no way I'm sending off garbage... I have a bit more pride than that, and believe most people here do as well. The point of these things are to give what you can afford... or in this case make the best gift you can to your ability. I'm not going to say someone sending off a MS Fighter and receiving a mild steel knife can't happen, but is preventing that fringe case worth scaring off the participation?

Not to mention, whenever you create a new "category," you're effectively cutting down on the participants. These types of gift exchanges aren't much fun with just a few people.

As for voicing my concerns before it began, this is the first I read of the topic, as it is only 3 days old. Seems there was still discussion and changes as recent as today regarding the rules. Regardless, I apologize if I'm late to the party.

Oh well. I suppose you could always say that if I could do it so much better, I should have set it up myself, so I can shut my mouth if you'd like haha :p Again, I really do appreciate you taking the time to set this up. I really want to participate, but unfortunately the rules are just turning me off a bit too much. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind tomorrow :D
 
Its not me who expressed the worry. I understand it, and have seen it in many non knife related exchanges. I certainly won't be taken advantage of here since I am still learning the ropes. The classes are to open up the exchange to less experienced makers. The expectations are no more restrictive than what has been expected in the past, and limiting people to a full year of membership was a previous expectation. The recent edits to the original post have been to add people to the lists to show who has signed up. I hoped that would keep people from having to scroll through pages to see who has joined, or if they were missed.

Weebus, I appreciate the feedback, and expressing yourself in a respectful way. I think people are getting caught up in the emotion of this, rather than looking at it logically. Shop talk was recently split between Shop Talk and Hammer and Tongs, as a result of the feedback that experienced makers are getting tired of newbies WIPs. Not very welcoming. Now we expect them (us) to feel open to participating here? I am one of the newbies, and feel intimidated by the wealth of experience here.

I would like to offer a thought for reflection. The 2011 Kith was a disaster because of the decision making and bitching. I wasn't here so I can only go on what I've been told. The leader of the 2012 Kith won't do it for two reasons: being busy, and not liking the bitching about the rules. I think he felt people wanted the "wild west." No one else stepped up to offer to do it, so I offered. Maybe the unwritten expectation is that no one picked it up this year to make a point? If so I missed it. I have counted out the feedback, and its pretty close to 50/50- accepting vs. complaining. Its a little weighted toward complaining, but some of the complainers are also people who complained about how it worked historically, and some have complained more than once.

I suggest people stop complaining as this seems to be the third year in a row at least that people are bitching. I am not ammending the rules any further, but if there is an overwhelming sense that people want free for all, then we will end up there. If you are an experienced maker or have participated in 2 or more kiths, please see the rules as guidelines for people new to this. If you have a quality product that isn't quite "in the rules" just post what it is and it'll likely be OK. Try it this year. If it doesn't work well, next year someone can do this differently.

I am relatively new here, but this isn't my first rodeo in terms of leadership. This is actually an area of multiple years of advanced experience for me. Miss out if you like, but you will be the ones missing out. Lead by example and many will listen.
 
Willie,
I don't know where you heard that the 2011 KITH was a disaster???? I thought the 24 final knives were great.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/896746-CHRISTMAS-KITH-Not-a-Sticky-anymore
A member started a second KITH for Newbies, and that had some discord. In 2012 we went to a single KITH with the same rules as before.


This KITH is up to you if you are running it, so just do it as you see fit. People will always complain, no matter what you do. The complainers rarely are the prime movers of the group, and often are not even participants.

If it gets up and running, let me know if you want it stickied.
 
You know what, I suppose I'm not really helping by being difficult, haha. Stacy is right, there will always be people who prefer it one way or another. I'm not the one running it, and I'm not being helpful by complaining about it. Might as well add something useful to this instead, so...

Count me in... Small Knives category. Though, I don't plan on making something small :p
 
Excellent Weebus!! I am doing a hidden tank bird and trout with a raised clip for the small knife class. I have a couple in use with testers right now, and they love the versatility the clip adds. I'll post a pic ofr the last one I completed.
 
An example of our discussions was just PM'd to me. A maker wants to use a leather backed, hemp wrapped, epoxy soaked handle. It suits the knife perfectly, and is completely functional, so it is in group 2, small knives, rather than group three. The maker put good effort into the handle, it looks good, and I think anyone would be happy to receive the example he showed me.
 
Willie - This still in Around The Grinder. Only about half of the Shop talk folks can see it here.
 
Let's move it and sticky it If that is ok.
 
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So for folders, friction folders are in group 2 and slip joints and lockers are in group 1, correct?
If so, I'm in for group 1.
 
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Yes correct. I'll add you to the list when I'm on my computer. It's a pain to do it on the iPhone.
 
With a new, working grinder in the shop, I need to test it out and make something on it. Put me down for group 2 and I'll see what I can come up with now that I have a decent grinder. You should already have all my info, Warren.

Now, if I can just find a hammer-in this month to build the knife at. . . .
 
Willie, put me down for group 3. It'll be O-1 but i cant meet the heat treat requirements for groups 1 and/or2. But group 3 is cool.

thanks

randy
 
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