420HC does hold an edge

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">(snip)knives in a variety of premium steels. I know most forumites will say just order from Petes, but I also know that you can't get the best price from there. The standard 110 there is over $60.00, while I paid less than $35.00 for mine at a sporting goods store.[/B]</font>
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No one will be purchasing the standard 110 from Pete, but if you compare Petes knives with custom scales and higher end steel with other similar offerings on the market, they're a very good deal. If they expand the offerings to other models, we may have the best of both worlds yet.


------------------
Jim Rasmussen
Idyllwild CA
 
Mr. Buck and Mr. Houser...

I don't believe I did see that reply from the engineers regarding 420HC.

Not that it stopped me from ordering a NH for the wife's car, but... just curious, as I chose the NH for ergos, blade profile, and corrosion resistance rather than edge holding...

-jon
 
Hey guys,

I am going to chime in.

I come from the Strider school of thought about knives. To use the best possible materials that technology has to offer. In my opinion S30V is the best knife steel out there. It was specifically made for it. Now, that doesn't mean that other steels aren't good for cutlery. From an actual user standpoint, it would be very hard to tell the difference in the field, unless you are putting your knife to some serious work. With that said, what I have found is a great test of edge retention for a field knife is digging. Go to the beach and start diggin in the wet sand for a while. Next, see if you can re-sharpen your knife to a factory edge. Edge geometry and heat treat plays more of a role in this than the steel you are using.

About our 420HC,

Our 420 HC is unique in the way it is exploited. Paul Bos, our heat treat expert, applies our proprietary heat treat and triple temper that definately sets our 420HC on a higher level.

The fact that it is less expensive is a bonus in my book. I want field knives that are sturdy and reliable, that a LCPL with two kids can still afford to buy.

420HC (with Paul Bos heat treat) toughness example.

Recently a local SWAT team wanted to test some knives for vehicle entry and extrication. I was pleased to learn that one of our old Intrepids smoked the competition. This 420HC knife was used to puncture and cut apart tires, remove sections of the winshield, bust windows and puncture and cut through the body. This is an example of how 420HC, when used with the proper geometry and heat treat, can be just as effective as more expensive steels.

Strider Knives also conducted a series of tests on our 420HC for use in some upcoming SB fixed blades, to include rifle round impacts on the edge and surface. They gave us the green light after the steel passed with flying colors.

It isn't S30V, but to the operator in the field there isn't much noticeable difference (if any).

Just my observations,

Thanks,

Josh
 
Josh,

Thank you for your detailed comments -- I really appreciate your efforts on this forum. :)

A few questions:

How thick is the blade on that Nighthawk? Is there a full-size (6 1/2") serrated version? (Yes... I like serrations for an emergency-use car knife...)

Also... so, you'd say the 420HC isn't a sissy steel, right? Would it be comparable in edgeholding and ductility to 440C? I'm thinking of ductility and resistance to torsion -- using it for prying and cutting duties, versus the impact involved in chopping cinderblocks and the like.

Third, what year did Buck start putting Edge 2000 edges on the NH's? I'm not sure how new the one I'll be receiving is, and I'd like to make sure it's up to par.

Thank you!

-jon
 
Originally posted by biogon
Josh,

Thank you for your detailed comments -- I really appreciate your efforts on this forum. :)

A few questions:

How thick is the blade on that Nighthawk? Is there a full-size (6 1/2") serrated version? (Yes... I like serrations for an emergency-use car knife...)

Also... so, you'd say the 420HC isn't a sissy steel, right? Would it be comparable in edgeholding and ductility to 440C? I'm thinking of ductility and resistance to torsion -- using it for prying and cutting duties, versus the impact involved in chopping cinderblocks and the like.

Third, what year did Buck start putting Edge 2000 edges on the NH's? I'm not sure how new the one I'll be receiving is, and I'd like to make sure it's up to par.

Thank you!

-jon
Click to expand...



NH is 1/4 " thick

Its current config will be going away, not sure if there are any serrated ones. I will check around.

420HC vs 440C- As good if not better with the right heat treat. I have never used any 440C though so I can only compare the 420HC to 14-4 steels (ATS-34).

In fixed blade field knives. Torsion and Ductility.
No difference in practical use, when blade thicknesses exceed .190 Both will perform well if the blade geometry is designed currectly. The 14-4 steels will be stronger, but with human strength applying the pressure you won't notice a difference.

Ultimately it comes down to Blade geometry and Heat Treat.

Lucky for us we have the best knife heat treater there is.

Edge 2000 was probably in 2000 but I will find out for you. I wasn't around here back then.

Josh
 
Again, my thanks for your help.

How will the NH be changing??? Should I hold off my order for the new version?

How does 420HC compare to ATS-34/154CM, then? I was only providing 440C because I didn't think 420HC would be in the realm of ATS-34...?

Thankee!

-jon
 
Originally posted by biogon
Again, my thanks for your help.

How will the NH be changing??? Should I hold off my order for the new version?

How does 420HC compare to ATS-34/154CM, then? I was only providing 440C because I didn't think 420HC would be in the realm of ATS-34...?

Thankee!

-jon
Click to expand...


The new NH is still a while off. Looking at a full tang slab handled design.

ATS-34 is a better blade steel than 420HC, however,given the same blade geometry and with normal field use it would be hard for a normal user to tell much of a difference. ATS-34 and its counterparts are definately what are desired if you are going to be putting your blade to extreme impact use.

It comes down to the right tool for the job. If you are using your knife simply for cutting you may not need ATS-34, but if you know that your mission proflie may demand some serious chopping of thick, tough materials, prying and digging in hard, rocky soil than it would be wise to have a blade with the best steel you can afford.

Just my observations, hope they help

Josh
 
I´ve had Buck knives since the mid 70´s and have them in 440C, 425M and 420HC, and preffer the 440C, the only Buck I really abused was a 112 in 440C that I had for about 20 years and it held up well. I don´t notice the difference between 425M and 420HC, I just feel I have to touch them up more often.
 
Originally posted by J Rummerfield
ATS-34 is a better blade steel than 420HC, however,given the same blade geometry and with normal field use it would be hard for a normal user to tell much of a difference. ATS-34 and its counterparts are definately what are desired if you are going to be putting your blade to extreme impact use.

It comes down to the right tool for the job. If you are using your knife simply for cutting you may not need ATS-34, but if you know that your mission proflie may demand some serious chopping of thick, tough materials, prying and digging in hard, rocky soil than it would be wise to have a blade with the best steel you can afford.
Josh
Click to expand...
A blade properly heat treated to take advantage of S30V's benefits, will exceed an ATS-34/154CM blade's performance, especially in the toughness arena (resistance to chipping).

Blades of similar hardness would exhibit similar strength (i.e. "plenty"... if left thick and used sensibly).

See "Edge Retention" and "Toughness" in right hand column of this data sheet:
http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dsS30Vv4.pdf

Sal Glesser's Q-Fog tests call into question whether S30V is really any more corrosion resistant than 440C. It may not be at all. 420HC probably beats both by some distance in corrosion resistance.
 
Hi Josh,

Personally, I would much rather have CPM 3V than any stainless steel for “serious chopping of thick, tough materials, prying and digging in hard, rocky soil” and the like.

The hard “premium” stainless steels will hold an edge and resist rust fairly well but none of them are very tough compared to CPM 3V.




- Frank
 
Originally posted by frank k
Personally, I would much rather have CPM 3V than any stainless steel for “serious chopping of thick, tough materials, prying and digging in hard, rocky soil” and the like.
Click to expand...
Agree. 3V is remarkable stuff. Right with or slightly past L6 in toughness at high hardness, Rc58-60 range.
 
A Buck knife in 3V would be awesome! How about a General?
 
Well I thought I would pass an observation I just saw today. A co-worker brought in a Buck Intrepid (187-ta) Tanto he had used to dress and section a deer out with. He was not too happy with the 420HC steel. The serrations were bent in a couple places and I noticed chips along the plain edge. I asked him if he hit some rocks or something and he said "No...Just bone". I can see having to touch up an edge but this was a little more than touch up.

While I personally would not use a knife of this design to dress out a deer it should not have been damaged this badly doing 1 deer. However I will admit it is hard to beat 420HC for rust resistance. That's why so many dive knives are made from it. :)

Just for fun I am letting him borrow my Swamp Rat Howling Rat to use this year. I want to see how the SR101 (glorified 52100)holds up to his dressing methods. We shall see . . .
 
First, This thread has been very good - just one more example of the good folks at Buck staying in touch with all us out here.

Second, just to give my two cents about a new NH with slab-handle design - The current handle is very ergonomic. I have had some difficulty with fatigue when using slab-handle blades for lots of chopping and whittling - has something to do with not having a square hand I think... Anyway, I know it is possible to get good ergonomics on a slab-handle design, just more difficult.

Dan
 
Sorry not to be more specific. We are thinking of using slabs like the Kit Carson knife we did a while back, the Intrepid. They are very ergonomic. I love the feel of the current 650 handle, but in order to increase strength and versatility I want something with a full tang that has an exposed butt end.

Thank you for your input,

Josh
 
Greymoor, I would suspect that your coworker has actually hit something other than bone along the way. It is one heck of a dumb choice as a hunting knife. I would suspect that he has done other dumb things with the knife. I would not place a lot of confidence in this one report of problems with 420HC.
 
Hiya Jeff,

As i said it is not a knife I would use for hunting. He said he wanted a all round knife survival / hunting / outdoors. And again the intrepid I would not choose. No knife can be the master of all jobs. Some come close but usually I carry two to cover my outdoor tasks. I asked him again about the bent serrations and he said just the pelvis bones and bones around some joints as he was quartering.

I am going to see if the 'ol sharpmaker can bring some life back into this knife. Then maybe it can go back into service doing the job it was designed to do :)

As for 420HC it's an ok steel, I like my old late 70's 110 in 440c better than much of the new stuff. If it was not for the fantasic heat treatment that bos does I would not touch a buck in 420Hc. I have had less capable heat treated 420hc before and hated it. Dulled way to fast, sharpened fast too :) With Buck current ideology the 420hc with a good heat treat gives them a way to make a knife with ok steel that is very rust resistant at a price point that keep their usual customers happy. It is business and this keeps it good. I still wish they would have a second tier of knives for us folks who like a little more quality in a knife. They would not sell nearly as many as they do to the big chains now but if their popular models came in S30V steel with the Bos heat treat. Many more of us would be sporting some new bucks.

I can dream . . .
 
While on the subject of 420HC I have a question concerning my Vanguard. The blade steel is very tough, almost too tough. I have a very, very difficult time sharpening my knife with a ceramic V sharpener. I prefer my knives close to razor sharp and find this hard to do with the Vanguard. Any suggestions out there?

Ps. other than sharpening I love the overall design of the Vanguard (especiall now that I have a Bob Dozier sheath for it)
 
Originally posted by firefive
The blade steel is very tough, almost too tough. I have a very, very difficult time sharpening my knife with a ceramic V sharpener. I prefer my knives close to razor sharp and find this hard to do with the Vanguard. Any suggestions out there?
Click to expand...

Toughness is shorthand for "impact toughness", i.e. resistance to chipping. I think you mean your knife is resistant to abrasion, i.e. resistant to abrading away metal with ceramic V sharpener.

In general, with few exceptions, any knife that holds an edge well (is hard to dull) will also be hard to sharpen. It has to be this way, in general.

Others will say "clean your ceramic rods"... which might help some, or "improve your sharpening methods". I find ceramic rods load up quickly and also don't cut very fast, ESPECIALLY for reprofiling a blade's edge. If those items are not an issue, then on to:

Short answer is "buy diamond stones".

You can buy (for a price) diamond sleeves for a Spyderco Sharpmaker. Many people love the Sharpmaker, I only use mine for serrations and quick touchups, or deburring.

I do my primary sharpening on a Lansky jig with (old Lansky stones or) my new DMT Diamond stones. Fine finish is great toothy edge, Extra Fine is still lightly toothy, either can get "fine hair shaving sharp". Scary sharp takes stropping, etc. Another thread.

You might also try DMT or EZE-Lap benchstones (diamond) if you can sharpen freehand.

(I also use a bench grinder for big blades, axes, lawnmower blades that aren't too dinged up... it's a hard cardboard wheel with either silicon carbide dust glued to board, and then stropped on another wheel w/ a rouge. Grinder cuts fast, can detemper your blade (pretty blue or gold colors) quickly also if you overheat it.
 
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