A good short read for all the SHTF guys wanting a sword..

[gadunz]

2 edges are quicker than 1. And as pictured, the Scot method allows the use of 3 weapons together.

Knightly blades could be excellent swords, but are often denigrated merely as crude hunks of iron while samurai swords are venerated and exalted sometimes to the point of absurdity by collectors and enthusiasts (something the Japanese themselves do not discourage). Bad films and poorly trained martial artists reinforce this myth. The bottom line is that Medieval swords were indeed well-made, light, agile fighting weapons equally capable of delivering dismembering cuts or cleaving deep into body cavities. They were far from the clumsy, heavy things they're often portrayed as in popular media and far, far more than a mere "club with edges." Interestingly, the weight of katanas compared to longswords is very close with each on average being less than 4 pounds.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm#.U3qb8nbYeXY

 

[Wolf_1989]

IMO to look at a sword for post-civilization use, look at the sword used in parts of the world where civilization is vague or even nonexistent... the machete.

 

[gadunz]

SHTF- gasoline & gunpowder no longer made. What sword, if any, would you carry?

 

[falar]

2 edges are quicker than 1. And as pictured, the Scot method allows the use of 3 weapons together.

Knightly blades could be excellent swords, but are often denigrated merely as crude hunks of iron while samurai swords are venerated and exalted sometimes to the point of absurdity by collectors and enthusiasts (something the Japanese themselves do not discourage). Bad films and poorly trained martial artists reinforce this myth. The bottom line is that Medieval swords were indeed well-made, light, agile fighting weapons equally capable of delivering dismembering cuts or cleaving deep into body cavities. They were far from the clumsy, heavy things they're often portrayed as in popular media and far, far more than a mere "club with edges." Interestingly, the weight of katanas compared to longswords is very close with each on average being less than 4 pounds.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm#.U3qb8nbYeXY

I agree with a lot of this post......particularly that "Generally Speaking" western swords are underrated in cutting ability and Katanas overrated. I personally have no bias as I own quality reproductions of both. I'm looking for a link right now to a guy that did a test to show the effectiveness of mail and fabric armor (like a jack or gambeson).

It was interesting, many different "types" of western sword were tested (and even a dagger) and one Katana.

Found it:

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131

IMO a Katana is one of the best cutting designs of all time with better than expected thrusting capability. Mail would easily render it useless for the most part but would do the same to any other sword save for only the most thrusting oriented ones that could pierce a few links.

 

[Triton]

In a modern world without plate armor or mail I believe a Katana style sword would be the most effective to employ.

The combination of speed and cutting ability would be devastating to the unaware I'd wager.

I am unaware that a katana is any faster or has more cutting ability than any European style sword designed for cutting. It's also not as good at thrusting and has only one edge.

 

[falar]

I am unaware that a katana is any faster or has more cutting ability than any European style sword designed for cutting. It's also not as good at thrusting and has only one edge.

My longswords are cutting swords (XIIA and XIIIA) but I can swing my Katanas much faster and with more control. I am completely untrained in the proper usage of either, however, and maybe someone that knew what they were doing would have had the opposite experience.

Did you check out the link I posted above? I was rather surprised how well the Katana did in the thrusting department on the soft target in that test.

 

[sideways]

I think the civilians caught in Stalingrad during the second world war who didn't have guns used shovels. You could use it to dig a foxhole in the ground to take shelter from artillery and you could also hit people with it. Since then the stockpiles of guns and ammo have increased to the point where even child soldiers in third world countries have automatic weapons. They probably couldn't tell you why they are fighting but they have enough guns and ammo to wipe out the children fighting on the other side of the conflict. Melee weapons are no longer a thing. If SHTF is a serious consideration get a gun, then some friends with guns.... but work like hell so it never comes to the point where you have to use em.

 

[BlackKnight86]

I am unaware that a katana is any faster or has more cutting ability than any European style sword designed for cutting. It's also not as good at thrusting and has only one edge.

Triton, for cutting, I think it's in the fighting style; and it's not so much the katana itself, as it is the curve of the blade. A straight blade cleaves well; but is less efficient at bringing it's cutting capabilities to bear in the swing. Any Western saber supposedly could do as well as a katana, all things being equal; but the two-handed ability of the katana brings speed and maneuverability along with it. So, it's the "perfection" in the compromises that make the katana "all around" "best". I suppose a two handed saber with a longer guard would be even better....again, all other things being equal.

At least that's what I've read....I'm not in any position to judge sword technicals.

 

[kaotikross]

SHTF- gasoline & gunpowder no longer made. What sword, if any, would you carry?

hand and a half. Lots of utility to be had in that style too. not too clumsy for use on horseback.

 

[Triton]

My longswords are cutting swords (XIIA and XIIIA) but I can swing my Katanas much faster and with more control.

Both of which are probably significantly larger than your average katana I would think? For a more direct comparison try an XVIIIa or perhaps a XIVa, I think you will find that there's not much difference.

Did you check out the link I posted above? I was rather surprised how well the Katana did in the thrusting department on the soft target in that test.

I did not, (although I will) but I suspect that most things with pointy ends will do reasonably well against soft targets in terms of damage, but I was thinking more in terms of point control. It's just easier when your point is in line.

 

[Triton]

Triton, for cutting, I think it's in the fighting style;

Certainly during different eras there was more cutting than others, mostly waxing and waning with the capabilities of the armor faced.

and it's not so much the katana itself, as it is the curve of the blade.

I've certainly seen a mechanical arguement made before, particularly in the sort of "draw cut" that is employed when using a katana. The concept has some merit but only if we artificially constrain ourselves to soft or lightly armored (by Western standards) targets. If we look at the entirety of the targets including heavily armored ones we discover that the "cleaving sword" is the better cutter in that case. In modern usage I suspect that the vast majorities of users wouldn't be able to tell a dimes difference in terms of cutting ability.

At least that's what I've read....I'm not in any position to judge sword technicals.

Fair enough, I've had experience with both although I'm no expert with either, but I do admit it does set me teeth on edge a bit when many instantly takes it as gospel that the katana is a better cutter.

 

[gadunz]

I think the civilians caught in Stalingrad during the second world war who didn't have guns used shovels.

No, the civilians were eventually evacuated, soldiers who'd run out of ammo fought with sharpened shovels
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc5_1264991630

ГРАЖДАНАМ СТАЛИНГРАДА • КРЕПКИМ КАК СТАЛЬ • ОТ КОРОЛЯ ГЕОРГА VI • В ЗНАК ГЛУБОКОГО ВОСХИЩЕНИЯ БРИТАНСКОГО НАРОДА
TO THE STEEL-HEARTED CITIZENS OF STALINGRAD • THE GIFT OF KING GEORGE VI • IN TOKEN OF THE HOMAGE OF THE BRITISH PEOPLE
http://searches.qone8.com/search/web?fcoid=417&q=sword of stalingrad

Since then the stockpiles of guns and ammo have increased to the point where even child soldiers in third world countries have automatic weapons. They probably couldn't tell you why they are fighting but they have enough guns and ammo to wipe out the children fighting on the other side of the conflict. Melee weapons are no longer a thing. If SHTF is a serious consideration get a gun, then some friends with guns.... but work like hell so it never comes to the point where you have to use em.

Alternative SHTF- hypothetically no gunpowder or gasoline, or the means of making them, exists. You have a choice of any sword. Which one, if any do you take?

 

[sideways]

Arguably the line between civilians and soldiers got pretty blurred. What do you call a person with no military training or equipment living and fighting in a city under siege where the fighting goes from neighbourhood to neighbourhood. I would not call a guy with a spade and a uniform a soldier.

Back to the hypothetical lone survivor dude wandering the wasteland fantasy.... I'd go for a good multi purpose axe. Building shelter would be a higher priority than fighting. Or a full size solid shovel for digging ditches and wells. The shaolin fighting spade might also be of some use. For hunting I would want a bow. For detail cutting a 4 inch bushcraft type knife would work.

The sword was a very specific melee fighting tool reserved for the professional soldier. Those days are gone. I wouldn't mind hanging a katana/long sword/gladius/philipino sword/spear/halberd on my wall though.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Falar, that link was interesting, although I notice that the katana wasn't trusted enough to put to any kind of serious harder test. The tester knew that the other swords would be fine against the mail, but I doubt anyone in their right mind would try a nihonto against chain mail or other armor.

The mechanical advantage to the katana lies in the fact that it facilitates a draw cut, which cuts much better than a blow perpendicular to the cutting surface. Think about how much easier it is to do a draw cut than a push cut on paper. Because of the curvature, on a properly done swing, you maintain the edge and angle to continue the draw cut much longer than with a straight blade. So yes, the katana, like the falchions and other similar blades mentioned in that link, does have a lot of cutting ability, and will still do just fine at thrusting.

But that's not really indicative of ultimate combat effectiveness, particularly not against unarmored opponents. You don't need a massive amount of cutting ability to inflict an incapacitating wound on an unarmored opponent. I would suspect that speed would likely be far more important against an unarmored opponent.

Too, the style of the katana revolves around sweeping slashes. Great for ending the fight in one hit if you actually hit your opponent, and certainly effective, but not necessarily the be-all and end-all. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised if a rapier did very well against a katana. It's a hard target, and it is unlikely that the katana would be able to cut through it while blocking, and the katana user would be hard pressed to close against a blade like that without getting seriously injured. Too, a side-sword or cut-and-thrust sword would still be able to deliver devastating slashes and powerful thrusts far faster than a katana. Using two hands doesn't necessarily make you any faster. A light sword like a side sword, with a buckler, would be a very potent combination, and I'd wager if you had two equally skilled users, one with a side-sword and buckler, and the other with a katana, the katana user would end up losing most of the battles, and the differences would get even more lopsided as the skill levels increased.

Too, in a SHTF situation, I wouldn't want something so relatively delicate. The katana would do great until it broke, but it would break eventually. What happens when the katana user goes up against a group of people wielding chains and metal pipes (a situation almost certain to happen)? If he has to block a blow from a metal pipe or a baseball bat, etc, that's the end of the katana. A western sword would fare much better in that circumstance.

This is all idle speculation, but, surprisingly enough, I don't think most people really have a good idea about how effective a western sword can be, and there are MANY variants. The same could be said of other sword types, from scimitars to Chinese swords. Katana have their place, and they're very good at the limited, extremely specialized and ritualized cuts and combat styles that they're designed for, but they're far from the best all-around best melee weapon. Really, in a true SHTF situation, one would probably do best with a blunt weapon like a staff or club. They're far more effective against armored opponents, hard to break and easy to find replacements, and a lot more versatile than swords tend to be.

 

[horseclover]

The mechanical advantage to the katana lies in the fact that it facilitates a draw cut, which cuts much better than a blow perpendicular to the cutting surface. Think about how much easier it is to do a draw cut than a push cut on paper. Because of the curvature, on a properly done swing, you maintain the edge and angle to continue the draw cut much longer than with a straight blade. So yes, the katana, like the falchions and other similar blades mentioned in that link, does have a lot of cutting ability, and will still do just fine at thrusting.

One hand, two hand, curved or straight; cutting as if an axe or swinging like a baseball bat, the advantage of a curve blade is close to nil. Draw is good for any type of slicing cut and inherent for either straight or corved in swinging with two hands. True even when playing baseball Compared to the surface of the target, the curve of most katana is a negligible factor in form. Look at a ham slicer with ten or twelve inches of straight blade. Or for that matter any kitchen knife. Only certain types of the have much curve at all.

In heavy cutting (which includes draw) It has been large western medieval types that have succeeded where the katana hve failed (due to mass at speed due to longer blades). This could be argued endlessly but I have experienced this, just as some others have.

There is also the argument that there is less shock transmitted during a cut with a curved blade and if you consider a sabre on horseback, it almost makes sense in a passing cut.

Take with you whatever you like in exodus. Death in life is inevitable.

Cheers

GC

 

[kaotikross]

I had forgotten about the Sword of Stalingrad..what a beautiful piece.

 

[BlackKnight86]

Draw cut! Yes, thanks, Triton; that was the term I was looking for.

That's what I've read the curved blade is better for; and it seemed to be a technique facilitator, not any kind of improvement to the actual mechanics of the blade cutting. Again, not a unique characteristic of the katana. I, too, am not fond of the mystique that surrounds the katana and the samurai, etc......this is just my opinion; but I think it has more to do with the exotic nature of the culture, being as that it is Eastern rather than Western and has largely gone extinct. It's like the "romance" of the renaissance, but multiplied by the fact that it is an entirely different culture.

Look at a ham slicer with ten or twelve inches of straight blade. Or for that matter any kitchen knife. Only certain types of the have much curve at all.

Yes....but......

Look at the butcher knife. Look at meat processing knives. Look at the relatively extreme curve of the Blucher sabre. Look at the arguments about the slash vs the thrust that led to the development of the British Pattern 1908 sabre. No offense to anyone's experience; however, there is a reason for everything, a reason that has to be steeped in mechanical engineering of some kind, since what we are talking about is strictly a physical encounter of two mediums involving force, surface area, etc. I don't pretend to know those mechanics; but the explanation provided by Crimson Falcon seems to be valid, and makes perfect sense.

With respect to using experience to support a point of view:

In heavy cutting (which includes draw) It has been large western medieval types that have succeeded where the katana hve failed (due to mass at speed due to longer blades). This could be argued endlessly but I have experienced this, just as some others have.

That experience must account for all variables. In other words, if one is going to analyse the effect of the curve of a blade, he must have controlled for weight, mass, angle, etc; otherwise, how will he know which of the other factors may/may not have affected the performance?

Again, all due respect to individual experience; but there is a reason that swords evolved the way they did, where they did; and that reason must be due in some way to what worked for the individuals involved, and the way they did things.

 

[horseclover]

Draw cut! Yes, thanks, Triton; that was the term I was looking for.

That's what I've read the curved blade is better for; and it seemed to be a technique facilitator, not any kind of improvement to the actual mechanics of the blade cutting. Again, not a unique characteristic of the katana. I, too, am not fond of the mystique that surrounds the katana and the samurai, etc......this is just my opinion; but I think it has more to do with the exotic nature of the culture, being as that it is Eastern rather than Western and has largely gone extinct. It's like the "romance" of the renaissance, but multiplied by the fact that it is an entirely different culture.



Yes....but......

Look at the butcher knife. Look at meat processing knives. Look at the relatively extreme curve of the Blucher sabre. Look at the arguments about the slash vs the thrust that led to the development of the British Pattern 1908 sabre. No offense to anyone's experience; however, there is a reason for everything, a reason that has to be steeped in mechanical engineering of some kind, since what we are talking about is strictly a physical encounter of two mediums involving force, surface area, etc. I don't pretend to know those mechanics; but the explanation provided by Crimson Falcon seems to be valid, and makes perfect sense.

With respect to using experience to support a point of view:



That experience must account for all variables. In other words, if one is going to analyse the effect of the curve of a blade, he must have controlled for weight, mass, angle, etc; otherwise, how will he know which of the other factors may/may not have affected the performance?

Again, all due respect to individual experience; but there is a reason that swords evolved the way they did, where they did; and that reason must be due in some way to what worked for the individuals involved, and the way they did things.

Your individual experience with swords in hand would be what, exactly?

Show me the knives and swords that you slice with.

Cheers

GC

 

[BlackKnight86]

Your individual experience with swords in hand would be what, exactly?

Show me the knives and swords that you slice with.

Cheers

GC

Who cares?

You've given no support except your own experience....of which we know nothing. I, on the other hand, have been very clear about my level of experience. Did you gain sword experience at the expense of, say, reading comprehension?

This isn't rocket science, nor is it brain surgery. It's cutting something with a sharp edge. Stop trying to pretend that there are "wise masters" who have this "magical genius" that the rest of us somehow lack. The best swordsman in the world has the edge by virtue of technique and practice, not some ethereal level of knowledge above and beyond "the masses".

I would take Crimson Falcon's clear and reasoned explanation that meshes easily with the "experience" of anyone who's cut something with a knife in their life over your "trust me.....I know", any day.

Cheers

 

[horseclover]

Who cares?

You've given no support except your own experience....of which we know nothing. I, on the other hand, have been very clear about my level of experience. Did you gain sword experience at the expense of, say, reading comprehension?

This isn't rocket science, nor is it brain surgery. It's cutting something with a sharp edge. Stop trying to pretend that there are "wise masters" who have this "magical genius" that the rest of us somehow lack. The best swordsman in the world has the edge by virtue of technique and practice, not some ethereal level of knowledge above and beyond "the masses".

I would take Crimson Falcon's clear and reasoned explanation that meshes easily with the "experience" of anyone who's cut something with a knife in their life over your "trust me.....I know", any day.

Cheers

Actually, you might do well to comprehensively read my previous post (that you had posted parts of)

Some of my experiences (and others that have cut with me) are here for all to read as well. I claim no great knowledge beyond my own experiences and others I associate with in real life.

Let's go back a bit in this thread a bit here.

Look at the butcher knife. Look at meat processing knives.

That, your response to my comment

Look at a ham slicer with ten or twelve inches of straight blade. Or for that matter any kitchen knife. Only certain types of the have much curve at all.

Then

Look at the relatively extreme curve of the Blucher sabre.

You may have missed this towards the end pf that post of mine.

There is also the argument that there is less shock transmitted during a cut with a curved blade and if you consider a sabre on horseback, it almost makes sense in a passing cut.

You might also be missing that the form was for the light cavalry and heavy cavalry used straight swords. The British 1796 heavy not a slim pallasch (look it up) but rather a blade not so unlike the slashing swords of the "vikings". We'll get back to curved swords in a minute.

Another section you you replied to reads

That experience must account for all variables. In other words, if one is going to analyse the effect of the curve of a blade, he must have controlled for weight, mass, angle, etc; otherwise, how will he know which of the other factors may/may not have affected the performance?

You were replying to this

In heavy cutting (which includes draw) It has been large western medieval types that have succeeded where the katana hve failed (due to mass at speed due to longer blades). This could be argued endlessly but I have experienced this, just as some others have.

You seem to think I am writing this from some sort of vacuum and had thought of nothing you relate.

Bore you with details and real life experiences with others? C'mon down next time we do this. Always glad to see BFers. The Northeast Cutlery Collectors Association were happy to have visited this day. We have been doing this since 2003 and an associate longer than that down in Lincoln RI. There are knives as well and mine actually as big a public draw as my four dozen or sword swords (yes, I cut with some antique swords as well).

Books? Sword related? Ummm, yup.

How much is too much curve? Russian infantry

More than a katana huh?

Which sword below has more tip speed and overall cutting ability (with both swinging and drawing at the same velocities). Read that again, just in case.

Which target below was more impossible to cut with a katana (I know hard to see but discussed by me recently, here at BF.

Not sure why you seem to need my credentials when you have offered none directly to me, nor bothered to reply with what your slicers are. A pretty simple request. What is your personal experience with swords? I'm not bashful but a real inventory and reviews of all will take the rest of my life. Suffice it to say I have not handled all the swords ever made but I have decent relations to the five dozen I have and had, with larger medieval types being what I have cut most with. BTW, it was not only in my hands that the katana did not make the cut (that's a pun, if I were to make a point).

Another shot of my medieval junk

So, c'mon down this next September and we'll cut stuff with a wide variety of stuff. Bring your stuff too

Cheers

GC

I still like my spears for shtf

Two light using swords I might take. The straight one is near razor sharp and yes, I use them.

Or maybe something bigger?

Sorry, I've nothing in INFI