A look into the Sarki's art...

Ferrous Wheel

Ferrous Wheel

Joined
May 16, 2002
Messages
4,437
Hi, All:

We talk mostly about the wonderful HI khuks here, but what about the cleverly designed scabbards that protect the khus when not in use? The Sarkis have to take a blade, match it to some wood, and then custom design, assemble and decorate the sheath, no mean task.

Anyone interested on a report (with pics) on the Sarkis construction methods?

I'm currently redesigning the scabbard for my newly acquired YCS, a stunning and beautiful knife. I have removed the leather,disassembled the wooden pieces, removed the chape, tacks, and tool holders. I'm redesigning it so it will be more of a 'lay flat' design, as the awl and 2xKardas were kinda making the scabbard hang at a bad angle. Also, the old style sheath leather, although decoratively embossed, was sort of a thin and brittle rawhide leather, not as flexible as the other leather on my other khuk sheaths. I was afraid that in cold weather, an improper hit (or sitting in the thing) would jeopardize the rig.

I plan to photodocument the whole process of reassembling the thing with new leather, a kydex liner, and a few of my special design experiments (example: involving double-sided foam tape to affix lo-friction plastic in the sheath for a tight fit without sacrificing quick draw). Another thing I will address is that the 2xkardas and the awl kind brushg against each other when going on or out of the sheath, so I will isolate each tool in its own kydex 'mini-sheath.'

Being a technical writer by trade, I like to document processes like this, and will be doing so. I will share my findings if anyone is interested...I will also post pics of the finished product.

Keith
 
I'd love to see the process; I've often wondered how to get a leather covering over a carved wooden form.
 
Interest here, and I'm sure elsewhere, especially since it seems the people that used to build/repair scabbards are no longer doing so. Any "do-it-yourself" info would likely be appreciated, and thanks.
 
Sounds like quite a project. I know some medieval broad sword scabbards were lined with fleece, so the lanolin in the wool would help protect the blade from rusting. Wonder how well that would work for a blade that's not straight spined and parallel edged.
I've modified my khukri scabbard for daily wear in Afghanistan by covering it with soft elkhide. The elkhide is stretchy and molds perfectly to the scabbard. Stitched up the back and slipped back into it's frog, it looks good, covers the shiny chape, and will hopefully help keep my pretty scabbard pretty.
Looking forward to seeing how your project turns out,
Sarge
 
Keith:

"Has anyone re-worked a scabbard?" has been on my "to ask" list for some time. I have two scabbards that don't fit the blades well and, at some point, I'd like to try fixing them.

S.
 
Keith,

I'd be interested in seeing your progress too. I'm going to do something similar as soon as I get settled into my new place. I'll actually have space to work there. I can't wait to get started. ... but man do I hate moving :barf: :barf:

Alan
 
Go for it - any knowlege that CAN be passed along SHOULD be.
 
Somewhere I have some pix of sarkis at work but do not have the entire process documented.
 
..and I will be sure to post the info and pics (well, someone may have to post pics for me). Tonite I will have my bro over to to shoot some photos of the pieces, and we'll go from there.

...pix of sarkis at work --- Yes, Bill, I czeched those out beforehand.

...were lined with fleece --- Yes, Sylv, that is true, and especially true of Vikings and most Northmen. THe Fleece kept the cold blade from frosting and getting stuck in the scabbard as well. However, for this scabbard, It will be all 21st century in the inside. Low-friction plastic for quick draw and as a moisture blocker, and silicon lubricant on the blade.

I'll keep in touch. could have pics as soon as next week. GOtta love that digital age!

Keith
 
Originally posted by Ferrous Wheel ...... Low-friction plastic for quick draw and as a moisture blocker
Click to expand...
For bakers they make a teflon impregnated ??carbon-fiber?? cloth
to keep cake and other baked goods from sticking.
Different sizes, cheap, think of black waxed paper for
thickness/stiff/flex, worth checking out.
I use some to keep glue from sticking when I lay a repair down.
I've seen it lots of different places, but can't think of
a particular store chain offhand.
 
ddean,

This "bakers cloth" sounds pretty interesting.

I'm thinking of making a sheath for a knife, and I've read that most readily available leather contains residual, corrosive substances from modern tanning processes. Apparently older tanning methods now rarely used don't have this problem. Some people seem to recommend storing carbon steel knives outside of their sheaths for this reason. Protection of the user and knife during storage seem to me to be one of the functions a sheath should perform and it's ridiculous to store a knife outside of it's sheath unless it's on display.

Anyway, this cloth sounds like it could be glued to the leather, and proceed as usual. How do you think it would last?

Any comments on leather appreciated, especially what tanning processes don't create this problem and where to find leather so tanned.

Maybe this isn't as big a deal as some people describe?
 
THe cloth sounds interesting, but a no'stick clothe would be tricky to glue into a sheath. You could sew into a sheath as a liner, i bet.

Leather sheaths - I have ehard the same about the tanning process. Any time I get a 'rustable' knife or sword, I cut open the sheath, line it with kydex or low-friction plastic, and slap it back together. Works wonders for in-sheath storage, and I stor in the sheath all the time now.

Keith
 
F.W.

Good point--not much sticks to teflon. DOH!!
I was mainly thinking of the gluing to keep things neatly in place before eventual stitching,not as a permanent attachment method, though. Wonder if it's woven firmly enough to hold stitches?

What's this low-friction plastic? Is it cheap and readily available?
 
Any chromium or chemically tanned leather will etch carbon steel blades very bad.
Even the vegetable tanned leather will etch carbon steel blades over time in my opinion.
Vegetable tanned leather is the best for knife sheaths and scabbards and is the one recommended if you're going to use
leather.
I have an old pre WW II Marble's Ideal that has it's blade etched from being stored in its sheath for many, many years.
The best option if you have carbon steel, and in my opinion, even high carbon stainless it's best to Not store those types of blades in any leather sheath or scabbard.
Now if the sheath or scabbard is lined such as the ones for the khuks it becomes moot as the steel is protected from the leather by the lining and so shouldn't ever etch.
But if you've noticed a lot of the pix of the old khuks we've seen here the area around the bolster can be quite rusty and is because that area is more subject to the moisture in the surrounding air and unless protected with heavy oil or grease it's naturally gonna
rust.
The khuk is better protected on within the scabbard by the wood lining.

Blade Magazine usually has a few ads for the good vegetable tanned leather.
The old vegetable tanned leather was tanned with oak tree bark as it is full of tannin, but I don't know what the method is these
days.
Tandy's still probably sells the Live Oak Leather for tooling online that's good for knife sheaths and scabbards.
We're fortuante around Tulsa though to have 2 leather suppliers that have all kinds of leather that one can sort through for what they think best.
I usually buy several commercially tanned deer and elk skins every year for ndn projects as well as some vegetable tanned leather in different weights for sheath and scabbard making.
The brain tanned deer and elk skins are way to rich for me!!!!!!!
I also usually buy an otter skin or two over the course of a year for otter drags for the Straight Dance Regalia for powwow dancing.
I buy them sight unseen from these folks....
http://www.hideandfur.com/
and have always had good luck. They describe their hides very accurately and I've never been dissatisfied with their otter skins or other products I've ordered.
Some ndn friends have also bought bear, badger, wolf and other furred hides from them with excellent results.
Check your local phone book or the nearest large citie's directory for leather sources you can hand pick.
There's absolutely nothing like the smell inside a leather shop, better than "new car smell" even.:)

Edit:
This is what a search in Google turned up.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&q=Vegetable+tanned+leather.&spell=1
 
Originally posted by Yvsa .....We're fortuante around Tulsa though to have 2 leather suppliers that have all kinds of leather that one can sort through for what they think best.
Click to expand...
Which are those?
 
Bakers Cloth, You might try silpat. Heat proof silicon theated liners for baking . Just a thought.
 
Thanks for the information all!

I figured Yvsa would show up and give me some good info, since I recall an old thread where we discussed Oak tanning.
 
Originally posted by ddean
Which are those?
Click to expand...

Midcontinent Leather in Coweta (918)486-2900, website @ http://www.mcleather.com
And
EC Leather, 1924 E 6th St. (918)583-0292

Ddean, Midcontinent is a nice drive and is right on the road, on the right, down towards Coweta and not on the turnpike.
They have a nice selection of not only leathers, but also leather tools, dyes, glues, finishes and etc.

EC Leather also has a nice selection and I think they're a little cheaper on most comparable products and of course much easier to get to.
They pretty much have the same things as Midcontinent and if they don't have it they will order it for you.
The last Deer and Elk skins I got were purchased there.

We ndns always look at the flesh side of the skins first because in many projects that side is as visible as the hair side. Fringe is a good example, and if the flesh side is ugly the fringe is gonna be ugly.
The really nice deal is that if one place doesn't have what you're looking for the other usually does.:)
 
This site has a bunch of information on leather types and leatherworking, including molding leather. Great glossary. Good introduction for ignorami like me.

http://www.kingsmerecrafts.btinternet.co.uk/pageB.html

Seems like the vegetable-tanned leather is what works best for soaking, then molding to shape while being allowed to dry like the scabbard covering.

Any one tried what's described below? Is the result too hard for a knife sheath? (I'm thinking of making a puukko-type sheath for my JKM-1 which will encase more of the handle with a very tight fit)

Cuir Bouilli:- One really cool thing you can do with bark tanned skins is known as "cuir bouilli", meaning boiled leather. Here's a description from R. Reed's Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers:

"Wet, vegetable-tanned leather begins to shrink above 75 degrees Celsius and so lose its shape. After thorough softening in water at ordinary temperatures the leather can be formed or moulded into the most remarkable shapes which on drying retain a fair degree of permanence. This shape can be set more permanently by drying under moderate heat, the skillful choice of temperature determining the degree of rigidity obtained."

"A quicker process which produces extremely hard and rigid articles is to dip the moulded shape into boiling water for about 20 to 120 seconds. This partially melts the tannin, allowing them to flow and redistribute throughout the fiber network. On cooling, it turns into a tough, three-dimensional polymer network or resin, not unlike more modern materials such as Bakelite and the aminoplastics."
 
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