A radical theory, and leaving the world of expensive modern knives behind

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inexpensive work knives = butcher's knives. That's it?
I struggled to pin down and define the general category of knives I was referring to. They are represented by knives such as boning knives, cimeters, breaking knives, other general purpose butcher knives, and to a lesser extent chef's knives and maybe pairing knives. No-nonsense professional use stuff with thin blades. Basically, it's everything most knife enthusiasts ignore and don't take seriously.
 
"In order to thrust well, a knife needs to have no drag points, that means it must either be double-edged, or have a straight or trailing spine"

Trailing points dont stab/thrust....they slash.
What a bizarre statement. I'm quite sure I can take a trailing point knife and stab stuff with it, very effectively in fact.
 
Mike Stewart of Bark River said he would rather make knives from tool steel or 1095 than any of the latest super steels. But by comparison no one buys them and retailers dont want to stock them.

I have a Dexter Russell roast slicer with the Sani-safe molded handle that makes a wicked golok. Anything green under 2" is cut in 1 or two chops.

I still love my huge stack of knives though.
The Sani-safe line is fantastic. I use them at work, and they're a perfect example of what I'm referring to.
 
Exactly, although I prefer the 7" and 10" Old Hickory butcher knives with the humps on the backs filed flat.

You mean this one? Yes, I wish it was flat or sanded out of the box. Still an incredible value
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Interesting point of view
While I think the hype on super steels is clearly counterproductive in many ways I have to say I don’t come to the same conclusions as you

It is sure no one NEED a $100 knife, when one come to spend as much money in a knife it is about enjoying a hobby...
I have used a PM2 and a GB2 to work in my house. Together it is a $300 investment where I may have used any $10 knife from a supermarket ;)

But I don’t think it is about century old butcher knife to take your exemple
 
There's a lot I do like about old-school designs. I will agree that the rise of the secondary bevel and now in more recent times stock thickness and really obtuse bevels has caused a hard turn away from cutting performance and towards longevity/ease of maintenance in the modern knife.
 
There's a lot I do like about old-school designs. I will agree that the rise of the secondary bevel and now in more recent times stock thickness and really obtuse bevels has caused a hard turn away from cutting performance and towards longevity/ease of maintenance in the modern knife.
I think it's partially the result of knife manufacturers getting tired of people saying their knives suck because they keep chipping and breaking them doing idiotic things.
 
TL;DR a $20 butcher knife designed in the 19th century is better than anything you own for any purpose.

I've been collecting hundreds of knives of every description for 15 years, since I was a child, including countless survival and combat knives costing hundreds of dollars. I have been an avid hunter, fisher, hiker, and prepper for my entire life. I am also a professional butcher and use my own knives that I personally sharpen for 50 hours per week at work. I've cut more stuff in more ways and with more knives than virtually anyone.

Here is a theory I've been playing with recently: inexpensive "work" knives having old designs intended for culinary and butchering use are superior to more modern and expensive designs in every way. Whether the intended use is camping, hunting, wilderness survival, combat, EDC, the work knives represented by brands such as Dexter-Russel, F. Dick, Ontario Old Hickory, and so forth, the sort of cheap, boring, plastic and wood handled stuff that you subconsciously skip over when browsing online vendors, just flat-out outperform the fancy stuff we all drool over by every measure. Here's why.

Blade thickness: Work knives are made of very thin blade stock by modern standards, usually between 2 and 3 mm. This presents several advantages. The knife will slice much better, be dramatically lighter (only 4oz for a 6" boning knife), and be much faster and easier to sharpen. The disadvantages are non-existent. People sometimes talk about using thick modern survival knives to "pry" things, but that is ridiculous. I've been backpacking and practicing survival skills for years, and I've never once had to pry anything, and if I did, I'd just use a stick or something. Same goes for digging, not that I would ever dig using an edged tool that I had lovingly sharpened anyway. Thick knives are used for "batoning", but that is a terribly inefficient technique, one that I consider essentially useless, because it is much more efficient to split wood using improvised wedges carved from sticks or saplings at the site, something that takes very little time or effort. Batoning is also just about guaranteed to break any knife that isn't specifically designed for the purpose; it basically needs to be a shingling froe with a point. Youtubers who preach batoning and judge survival knives based on their performance with this technique are a sorry lot. Thick knives are often marketed as heavy chopping tools meant to stand in for a hatchet, but are always inferior for the purpose in comparison to a hatchet of the same weight. The whole "chopping knife" fad is a sad reflection of the modern outdoorsman's alienation from reality. In a pinch, a thin knife can fell large trees by using them as chisels with a baton, a technique that doesn't stress the tang and can be very effective with practice. As far as combat goes, even just 2mm of thickness is plenty to prevent the knife from flexing in a thrust, and the thinner knife will cut much better than the thicker ones. There is basically no reason for any knife to ever be thicker than 3mm.

The edge: Most survival and combat knives,even expensive ones, are shipped with ridiculous hatchet edges sharpened at 25 degrees or more per side. You need to work at them for days with coarse stones to make them usable. You will be tempted to break out the mill file and will probably screw the knife up pretty badly in a fit of frustration sooner or later. Many people don't even know what sharpness is because these types of knives are all they've ever seen. Work knives are generally shipped with far more acute factory edges, as little as 14 degrees per side sometimes, and cut amazingly because of both that and the thin stock. If a more durable edge is desired, it can be quickly and easily microbeveled to a more obtuse angle suitable for rough work without making you cuss and start thinking about buying a belt sander. People today think cutting is useless in a fight relative to stabbing because they've never seen a proper edge in their lives. They think you're a zen master sharpener if your knife can slice paper. I cut through chucks and inside rounds as thick around as a man's waist with single passes hundreds of times every day.

Steel: Modern knives boast wonder steels that profess to confer all sorts of amazing advantages and justify costing $200 or more. The truth is that blade steel was perfected 100 years ago and some of the most respected knife makers in the world make knives with old bearing steels that are the same or scarcely any different than those that have been used in work knives for generations. People blame bad steel for knife breakages when a $20 machete made of cheap carbon spring steel can fell a forest, so knife manufacturers make knives out of the very same cheap spring steel and sell them for $200. They think they will get a sharper edge by using the latest spaceage steel when they don't even have any clue how to sharpen because every knife they've bought was too thick and stupidly designed to learn to sharpen on.

Overall design and geometry: Many modern knives marketed for survival and combat don't even have a friggen finger guard. The sheer stupidity of it is baffling. All of my butcher knives have very secure and ergonomic grips with contoured finger guards, I rarely see any that don't. A common chef knife essentially has an integral finger guard with the blade being so broad and abruptly transitioning to the tang. A little friction tape around the sanitary plastic handles makes them foolproof. A finger guard doesn't interfere with anything, I would know by now if it did, so that debate is over. Knives marketed for combat almost always have dull clip points or obtuse drop points that couldn't stab through a paper bag. It's like a conspiracy between manufacturers and law enforcement to reduce knife fatalities or something. In order to thrust well, a knife needs to have no drag points, that means it must either be double-edged, or have a straight or trailing spine like butcher knives nearly always do. It's astonishing how many people cannot comprehend this. Combat knives frequently have completely useless finger choils that not only reduce edge length, but also serve as a convenient hook for a penetrated medium to rip the knife out of your hand. Work knives don't. If I were to design a knife for wilderness use or fighting, it would be scarcely any different than a boning knife or a butcher's cimeter.

I could go on, but this is a wall of text already. Hopefully you get it. I'm taking a break from expensive modern knives on a trial basis.

My wife and I have been trying to break this BK9 by batoning for a few years now. We have failed miserably...
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It'
My wife and I have been trying to break this BK9 by batoning for a few years now. We have failed miserably...
bcUQ209.jpg

uolyXyM.jpg
Yes, that's one of the few survival knives on the market that can handle that kind of use. I'd wager thousands of kabar USMC knives ave been snapped in half by using them this way. That all became moot to me several years ago when I discovered that improvised wedges were a superior technique for splitting firewood in a camping or survival context. Before that, I was obsessed with batoning and durability just like all the nutcases on youtube.
 
Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but I'm not sure you'll make many friends when you come on a board full of experienced knife enthusiasts and knife makers, claim superiority to others, then put down everyone else's techniques and choices. There are people on these boards that have been making knives longer than you have been alive, let alone using them.

I didn't post to chew on ya though, there's a lot of merit to what you're saying. There was a video I saw a while back talking about how the frontiersmen and mountain men of the 1800s used nothing but basic slab handled butcher knives and did fine with them. They carried an axe for splitting and felling rather than trying to baton or chop with a knife, the knife was designed to take apart an animal or do knife stuff rather than be a log splitter. Back in those days breaking, damaging, or losing your knife could be a very serious problem if you were far enough away from a settlement, considering you'd be without one for possibly weeks. A tough, thin blade that could flex but would not snap was more valued than edge holding alone. The thin blade and lower wear resistance aided in field sharpening as well.

Modern knives are asked to cut different things than older knives used to be, thus the change in edge geometry and steel composition. I prefer a balance of thinness and strength myself, but I can see the value in a stout fixed blade.
 
Maybe you’ve taken some valid points and observations and taken them too far. Your daily knife use offers insight, to be sure, but it’s cutting meat...all day. Not really covering all that an outdoorsman might want to do with a knife.

The value of chopping while hiking/hunting/camping/whatever can be debated, but it’s a handy ability to have in a small, portable blade. I’d rather not carry a hatchet or axe all the time. Having a knife capable of it in a pinch can be desirable. Plenty of through hikers don’t carry any knife and their ok. That doesn’t mean knives are useless.

On a KNIFE forum, we tend to obsess over and enjoy aspects much more theoretical than practical. Most of us get that. Saying an Old Hickory can be a great outdoor knife is fine. Saying it beats all others, unless the user is stupid, isn’t.
 
Nice tread. :). Most people buying the modern knives are collectors. They have the need for this tech. Ok with me. My go to hunting knife is a Esee 4. Edc Delica. Paring Opinel (Inox), Chef Case 8 inc stainless. And 3 Dan Tope mid techs CPM 3V. Collector stuff. 2 just sit in my knife box. The Bull Dog I EDC or for hiking. Have about 6 folders and 6 Fixed. Not including my Kitchen.

Any way to each his own.

Rich K.
 
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