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Discussion in 'Survive! Knives' started by XtianAus, May 24, 2016.

  1. rcb2000


    Apr 15, 2014
    Nice, I need to start watching season 3, loved the first two seasons.
    If I could only take one knife,, (plus an axe) it would be the 5.1
  2. redwood22

    redwood22 Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 23, 2014
    I missed the end of season 2, but the wife and i picked up strong on season 3 (really glad they changed the location) I always wonder what i would bring Knife wise, likely a GSO 5.1 and an axe (or saw) like RCB2000
  3. Silver Needle

    Silver Needle

    Jul 14, 2014
    Ugh...... you guys and your choils :D

    I'd go GSO 6 with a katana boy and a nice big axe.
  4. chiral.grolim

    chiral.grolim Universal Kydex Sheath Extension Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Dec 2, 2008
    I've never seen this show, but if I were all alone in the wilderness, I'd definitely choose to bring my choil 5.1.
  5. XtianAus

    XtianAus Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 3, 2016
    What about in a wet environment near rivers or lakes, would you guys be fine sticking with 3V or would you opt for 20cv?
  6. OBX351

    OBX351 Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 29, 2014
    I'd still stay with 3v.

    Here's a video of the original heat treat 3v. The new finish and new heat treat are supposed to be even better at corrosion resistance. OUtdoors for 1 year untouched. I've handled both knives and can attest to the fact that neither knives had any structural effect. I tried to get Guy to sell me the 4.1 because it has such a cool patina. He wouldn't sell it.
  7. XtianAus

    XtianAus Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 3, 2016
    I agree, the corrosion resistance is outstanding, especially the D3V, theres a photo on their instagram that shows the significant improvement.

    But let's say hypothetically, if that knife was given to you in that condition (the 1 year one) and you didn't have tools to clean it up like Guy did (because you in an isolated environment), would you still take it over 20cv? What i am getting is, do you think the knife's performance is disadvantaged or affected negatively in any way (besides aesthetics) if the corrosion resistance is built up over a year and still remains long-term while performing?

    This is all out of interest^
    the more i read about the carbon vs stainless knives for any situation be that; survival, BC, tactical, shtf siruations, the more I see a divide between those who prefer stainless and those who prefer high-carbon steels. Surely thats not because of aesthetics right? I don't understand why there are two sides to this. Shouldn't the tough steel be the preferred not the more rust resistant one? Its almost like the choil vs no choil divide lol.

    Don't mean to pick on you hahaha....but maybe you can shed some light on this?
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
  8. Karoi

    Karoi Unobtanium Member Gold Member

    Sep 7, 2014
    I've been wondering the same thing Xtian!
    Maintaining my 3V knives hasn't really been an issue even though I live quite close the coast, but the hypothetical scenario of trying to keep it rust free without any oils/tools available due to being in an isolated location (for whatever reason) does intrigue me.

    I think any knife that isn't a "stainless steel" knife would be a bit of a challenge to maintain in a coastal environment which has high humidity. Some of the guys in Singapore will confirm that!
    For all other environments I think the blade could be kept rust free if it's used and wiped (even on clothes) frequently even if no oils/tools are available.
    Perhaps only extreme circumstances such as gross neglect over a long period of more than a few months in salty and/or humid environments would result in structural damage to the knife.

    I could be wrong though!
  9. supertac916


    Sep 6, 2014
    I have the newer 5.1 in 3v and 20cv, but have been using the 20cv for the last few months. Figured the 20cv will have less chances of rusting in the snow and wet environments. If I were planning to have to live in the woods for 3-4 months, which it seems like the show is headed in Season 3. I'd probably end up bringing the 5.1 in 3v. It's easier to sharpen than my 20cv and really that's only main difference. I haven't had or noticed any significant differences in overall blade performance between the two steels, but I also haven't "torture" tested my knives. I just use them for basic and normal camp chores like processing wood into smaller pieces for fire prep or de-limbing branches. All of the bigger tasks like sectioning out fallen trees are done with my Silky or GB SFA.

    Why would I choose the 5.1 over my 3.5's, 4.1's, 4.7's, 5, 6, or 7/7's? I actually like the ergonomics and use the choil. The handles on the new 5.1's are slightly slimmer in the palm swell, than the 4.7 which is good with gloves and without gloves it feels better in hand for me. It's just personal preference. I may change my mind when we get more of the 2nd gen models in hand, but if you asked me today it would be my 5.1 3v. I think it's the perfect mid-size blade for me and is my current go too field knife during the winter. I may switch back to my 4.1 during the summer because I won't have to process as much wood for fires or like the last few years in CA due to the drought we weren't allowed to have fires.
  10. Fancier


    Jul 1, 2012
    I went through the southern Sierra mountain area last year and it seemed like three quarters of the pines were dead in the foothills. The oaks seemed to be doing okay, so that whole area looks to be undergoing a major species transition.
  11. supertac916


    Sep 6, 2014
    Yeah, I think it had to do with the drought and some beetle that wreaked havoc on the Pine trees. The drought was pretty severe for the last 5 years, but now we have more water store. Had some flooding and the Sierra's hasn't seen this kind of snow pack since the late 90's. Hopefully the trees will come back, but for now the fallen dead wood is plentiful for winter fires.
  12. Fancier


    Jul 1, 2012
    When I was a kid grandpa's firewood came from bark beetle killed pines in the San Bernardino mountains so they've been around for a long time.
    Grandpa never ran short on firewood, so it wasn't hard to find a beetle killed tree even way back then.
    The ongoing drought made it a lot harder for the pine trees to fight the pests, and it will take more than one good year to reverse the trend.
  13. Silver Needle

    Silver Needle

    Jul 14, 2014
    Good question, Xtian, and interesting topic. When we're talking about SURVIVE! super steel, I think there is less worry about corrosion compared to something like 1095. I'm not sure if a year's worth of neglect could do much more than make the blade ugly. Even without conveniences, I bet 3v would be alright in Patagonia. I think the advantages of easy sharpening and toughness would be pretty indispensable without normal sharpening equipment, making non-stainless a better survival choice.

    Heres the other big thought I had while catching up on this thread: what steels do the other tools have? Do saws have stainless components? Surely the axe heads aren't stainless, right? When I watched the short videos on what items the contestants chose, some of them specifically mentioned knives with high carbon blades.

    This thread took an interesting and knife-centered turn :thumbup:
  14. Fancier


    Jul 1, 2012
    Silver, I think that Fiskars makes a stainless axe, but it is rather funny looking and has a plastic handle.
  15. XtianAus

    XtianAus Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 3, 2016
    I agree Silver, very interesting turn, i like where this is going! Very interesting points raised by everyone! I will have to wait till tonight when i am not at work to reply to everyone.

    Please keep expressing your thoughts everyone. I am really interested in this topic. Ive always felt like i need just 1 tough stainless knife as a back-up all-weather proof knife but some points raised above^ are making me rethink that. I dont know!!

    I have a D3V FK at hand and a D3V gso 6 awaiting as pre-order. I dont need much more than that realistically, but whyyyy do i still feel like i need a stainless back-up.. argh
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
  16. XtianAus

    XtianAus Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 3, 2016

    Btw Silver, the highlighted part i find very interesting because we have one side of the fence saying that but then i have heard others who prefer stainless. I dont know why there is the split, you"d think toughness and ease of sharpening would be priority.

    But i wonder, if the situation was an eternal one, say end of the world, the walking dead style, would they still pick high carbon steels if they could never be able to eventually maintain or fix their blades...
    If they could only have 1 or 2 knives to which they could hardly maintain indefinitely, i wonder if thoughts would change.

    For me personally, id like one of each steel to cover all boundaries
  17. XtianAus

    XtianAus Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 3, 2016
    Also Karoi, i'm glad you havent had an issue with your 3V. Whereabouts are you from?

    My CPK FK is a safe queen atm so i cant comment on its corrosion resistance, but my RMD user has rusted a bit and i tried taking care of it but it proved harder than i thought. That's another reason i have been recently pondering over a stainless steel purchase, perhaps just 1 as an absolute backup knife if all else went wrong. Deciding which knife that could be is tough though....stainless and toughness don't always mix.

    I am probably overthinking it all, and most probably wouldnt ever need a backup weather-proof knife....but isn't that part of the beauty of this forum, to explore lala land and live out our knife fantasies haha.
  18. Karoi

    Karoi Unobtanium Member Gold Member

    Sep 7, 2014
    This is my $0.02 with regards to knife steels for "long term survival"

    1095, O1, etc. = Good for inland regions with lower salinity and humidity levels, and the user wants to be able to strike sparks off the spine with a flint. Some users on a budget favor certain knives in these steels.

    CPM 154 = Great all-round steel stainless steel which is very easy to sharpen. Might not be suitable for 6"+ blades whereby the user would want to also do heavy duty tasks such as batoning, chopping, and prying. Nevertheless it's still tougher than most other stainless steels (even CPM-20CV) and not as brittle as some others.

    CPM 3V & INFI? = Best all-round steels for most scenarios/environments, especially the one and only Delta protocol.

    Disclaimer:- I'm no expert on steels, and obviously two knives made from the same type of steel that have been heat treated and/or finished at different facilities can have strengths and weaknesses that vary from each other, bla bla bla..... :D
  19. Karoi

    Karoi Unobtanium Member Gold Member

    Sep 7, 2014
    Sorry Xtian, part of my previous post was in response to your post from yesterday, but then you posted these last few posts whilst I was writing that one which is why I didn't read them before I posted it :confused:

    You might have noticed that question I asked Nathan in the CPK sub-forum about forcing a patina to 3V steel.
    Unfortunately he said that he's never tried it before, so maybe someone in this sub-forum has done it successfully and could share their thoughts?!

    I'm from Perth BTW. How about you?

    P.S. IMHO the best way to find what exactly will happen is for one of us to test their CPK AND S!Ks to see how they'll stand up to corrosion if left on a beach for a few years. I hereby bestow the honor of this test upon you :p
  20. OBX351

    OBX351 Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 29, 2014
    Your first question: Would I take the 1 year old knife in an isolated situation? Yes, I would still take the 3v over 20cv assuming that I have the ability to sharpen either knife. I handled both knives and Guy confirmed that both were structurally sound.

    Your second question: Do I think the knife's performance is effected by 12 months of corrosion? Is that knife capable of continuing to perform in the long term? No to the first, see my above answer. Yes to the second, again based on handling the knife and speaking with Guy. I would find some sand and try to take off the surface rust but 3v doesn't seem to erode like 1095, 10x5, 01 and other high carbon steels when exposed to long term moisture. Guy proves this in his video and again I handled those 2 knifes and another he was testing. They were all structurally fine and as long as I could resharpen them I would use them in the field long term.

    My challenge with stainless steels is that it can't take the beating that high carbon steels can. Over the past 3 years I've been using 20cv and 3v and I've found that I can sharpen either in about the same amount of time. That in addition to the fact that 3v stays sharper longer than 20cv makes me want to use 3v. You can wipe off the surface rust on a 3v blade and not have much worry if you take care of it. In the same situation, long term survival/outdoors, and I had a choice between 1095, 01 or even CFV in an uncoated blade I would choose 20cv. But if the blade was coated I would CFV or 01 over 20cv because I believe the high carbon blades would have a less of a chance to chip when batoning and chopping.

    In the extreme, like a jungle, I would probably change my mind about this debate unless I could get a coated 3v knife. I've seen pictures of ESEE knives that have been used in jungle camps. The coating gets pretty beat up but it seems to protect the 1095 steel.

    In summary 3v can get surface stains that can be removed with steel wool or sand and elbow grease. It doesn't seem to decay like other high carbon steels. Guy wasn't concerned about the structural integrity of these knives. He wouldn't let me buy any of these test knives because he doesn't sell used knives.

    Lastly, I am NOT an expert. I am answering your questions based on what I saw and handled at the old PA S!K shop and several conversations with Guy about these knives and the steels he uses. I have been out in the field with my S!Ks for days not weeks. I am pretty hard on my knives but most of this is work at home or on hikes in my area.

    I know you're not picking on me but this is a great debate. Here's another string which might help as well: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1455343-CFV-vs-3v-vs-20cv-vs-154

    Here's my S!K steel stack rank based on (in order of preference) edge strength, ease of sharpening, edge retention and ease of maintenance/corrosion resistance:
    second gen heat treat 3v
    second gen 20cv
    original 3v
    original 20cv for light to med tasks ONLY otherwise I don't like the steel.

    So this begs the question, how would you rank the following: edge strength, edge retention and ease of sharpening and ease of maintenance/corrosion resistance (meaning of these 4 properties what's your order of preference)? Again I think the new 3v is the king of the heap.

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