Are there any real swords made out of black steel?

okay, there's a lot to reply to there... the first thing, and i want to make this ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, is that anything stainless steel is not a sword... it's just not.

Stainless steel is PAINFULLY brittle. There are semi-stainless materials like INFI, D2, S7, and other tool steels that make good swords, but 440c is NOT one of them. One good whack on the flat, and a stainless blade will either snap of be severely damaged.

Second, a 1060 steel blade CAN be excellent, or it can be utter and complete garbage. The difference is in the Heat Treat, not the steel. A competent maker can make 1060 nearly as good as 1095. In my opinion, the best common alloy for a sword (excluding exotics) is 5160. I was reminded of the Hanwei line, and i'd say that's your best bet for the money. They are highly functional weapons, and while they lack some features found in high end blades, they are 5160 steel, through hardened and durable. They'll do just fine for anything short of a sword fight with a blade made by a master.

I would NEVER buy a damascus blade at ANY price, unless i knew the maker of the sword AND the person who pattern welded the steel. Pass on damascus. Any competent swords made in damascus will be far outside your price range. I don't know of any exceptions to that.

DON'T buy on ebay. There's so much trash sold there under the names of unknown makers, and so many counterfeits that even if they have 100% feedback, i wouldn't trust it. You have to remember that the people buying and reviewing the sellers may not know ANYTHING about swords. They get the sword, it looks pretty, and they leave good feedback. Buy here, or from one of the reputable dealers. Trueswords.com is excellent.

If you want to stay cheap, and get a USABLE blade, get a Musashi. They aren't the quality that you'd want if you were about to run onto a battlefield with one, but they are CHEAP for what you get. Their through hardened models are under $70 and can take one HECK of a beating. I have one of the differentially hardened Musashi Bamboo swords, and it is quite competent at cutting mats and cardboard. I wouldn't use it for real fighting, but the fit and finish are excellent, and the steel is good.

Zombie tools gets a bad rap, but i am a fan. Never owned one, but i've handled a few, and they are 5160 steel, which, as i mentioned, is an excellent sword steel.

I have wasted hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars on crappy swords. While i'm no expert on what a GOOD sword is, i've earned the right to be an expert on what a crappy one is.
 
All kinds of problems with damascus steel on ebay and elsewhere.

First, what most people call damascus steel, actually isn't. It's just pattern welded steel, and isn't the same thing as damascus steel at all.

That's kinda beside the point though. The reason some ebay descriptions say "real" damascus steel is that other unscrupulous sellers have sold items that are just regular old steel (monosteel, because it's only made from one kind of steel) with a damascene pattern painted or etched on. It's not actually damascus, or even pattern-welded steel.

But even the "real" damascus steel in an ebay auction doesn't tell you anything about how good it is. Most cheap damascus steel is made from low grade materials, and is poorly done. I'd be very skeptical of a blade like the one you posted about, not only because of the price, but also because it's virtually impossible to get really GOOD damascus steel, even at cost, for a sword length blade, at relatively low prices.

For instance, I get my steel from Alabama Damascus, which generally has good prices. You can also look on some of the knifemaking sites, like usaknifemaker or knifekits or Jantz, and just see how much an unworked billet of damascus steel costs. You'll find that a 3 foot piece, suitable for making a katana, will run you well over $200. That's just the raw materials that we're talking about, and the reason that you don't find GOOD damascus swords for anywhere under $1000, usually. The stuff is really labor intensive, and very pricy, and the only way you really get to cut corners is in the quality of the materials and the process. No manufacturer or company can afford to put out really good quality damascus at that kind of pricing, let alone finished blades. So yes, take eBay descriptions, particularly of swords, with a huge grain of salt.

There's an Australian-based company on eBay that has some pretty decent stuff, and one in China as well, that I can personally vouch for, but neither offers damascus blades at that kind of price.

As for your cheapo katana, lets just say you got lucky. Those kinds of blades have been caught on video snapping and causing serious injury with light use. And mostly, they're tempered very soft, so they're tougher. However, that comes at a cost: they can't take and hold any kind of decent edge. They're just sword-like objects, really. One thing to watch for is whether the auction description mentions the rockwell values (usually HRC or RC). The one you linked doesn't mention the hardness values, and most ones that have a decent heat treat are differentially tempered, with a hard edge, and a softer spine. Often something in the 50s for the spine, and around 60ish for the edge, with some slight variations.

For your kind of use, I'd recommend something made out of 5160, 52100, 3V, L6, or maybe just plain old 1095 or even 1075 or 1085 carbon steel. Or INFI, if you want to drop some money. Those are all good at impact resistance. You probably don't want to muss up a really nice (and correspondingly expensive) damascus steel blade on a brick or something.

-edit- I've seen 440 steel, done properly, hold up VERY well, to the point of being able to chop through car doors and various sorts of ridiculous things. It's just the very very rare company that does 440 steel that well. It's not necessarily as fragile as Chris makes it seem, but then again, I don't think I've ever seen a 440 sword with a good heat treat, because there are just better steels. That being said, Ka-bar does a fine job with 440A (their kitchen knife brand), and there are custom makers, like Jay Fisher, whose 440C is pretty killer.
 
Hey CF... make him a 20" waki in 5160... With the HT you use, he could demolish a house then just strop it back to sharp ;)
 
20"? That's pretty short. If you're talking 20" blade, I can't do blades longer than 24" OAL, cause Darrin's HT oven won't fit em. Otherwise I'd be making myself a falchion.
 
<Shakes head> There's a reason multi-thousand dollar swords are multi-thousand dollars swords and it's not just snob appeal. There's a reason that 200 dollar swords are 200 dollar swords and it's not because the outfits selling them are peopled by altruists who want to bring wonderful inexpensive swords to the masses. As with everything in life you generally get what you pay for.
 
@BePrepared
Yeah I know that about stainless steel not being good, that's why I called my sword junk lol. I heard it's used for knives because anything longer than a certain length will come out very wobbly and delicate. So it's not bad for a display sword but horrible for a real one. I think I'll stay away from Damascus since I'm starting to get the feeling that a lot of people just throw the word in to attract buyers which would make sense. Besides is it really that good or is most of the lure just from the pattern on the blade? I think I won't buy on ebay unless I know the brand or the actual sword. What's wrong with Zombie tools? I just watched a video with one of their blades cutting through 24beer cans in one slash lol. I've heard of trueswords though so I'll check them out.

@crimsonfalcon07
Yeah you're right, I tried sharpening that katana of mine but it's still totally dull. All it has it a slightly sharp point. Holy crap, a 440 steel sword cut through a car door? I'd like to see a video of that. I notice you guys tend to stray away from 1060. Is there something wrong with it or is it just not up to par with the other steels?

Okay so far, I'm thinking of starting my collection off with the Banshee sword. Even though it does sort of have a machete look to it, I really like it for some reason. I've also read that it was able to cut bullets in half and obtain almost no damage. Being around $150, I should be able to buy it without any problems and then I might get something from Zombie Tools. I hear the banshee is very dull out of box though and I don't trust myself to sharpen such an expensive blade. When I eventually get it, what would be the best place to send it to? I tried edgemasters with my Cold Steel Kukri but it only came back with a mild edge and they said it broke one of their belts.

Thanks to all you guys btw, you've been very helpful and I feel that I'm learning a little more with every post.
 
Resent said:
@BePrepared
Yeah I know .... I think I'll stay away from Damascus since I'm starting to get the feeling that a lot of people just throw the word in to attract buyers which would make sense. Besides is it really that good or is most of the lure just from the pattern on the blade? .....

Thanks to all you guys btw, you've been very helpful and I feel that I'm learning a little more with every post.
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damascus-is-it-all-for-looks
 
There's nothing particularly wrong with damascus, just damascus on eBay. If you like the looks and you buy a damascus steel sword from a reputable smith or maker, you'll get a great piece. But I don't think it's really what you need for the kind of use it sounds like you want to put it to. The blade I was mentioning was a cleaver, not a sword. I don't think I've ever seen a sword done in 440 that was done well.

As far as 1060 goes, it can be pretty decent. I like 1095 out of the 10XX series the best, but I've seen fine swords done in 1075, for instance. Different smiths have different opinions about what kinds of steels they want to use for swords. It depends on what you want out of your swords.

The banshee isn't really an expensive blade... As you build your collection, you'll be surprised at how your perceptions change. I'd recommend richard j for sharpening services though. You might also look into the practical and practical plus line from Hanwei (all under 200), and if you want to spend a little more, you can find many other of their models, including the raptor line for 150-250.
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
There's nothing particularly wrong with damascus, just damascus on eBay. If you like the looks and you buy a damascus steel sword from a reputable smith or maker, you'll get a great piece. But I don't think it's really what you need for the kind of use it sounds like you want to put it to. The blade I was mentioning was a cleaver, not a sword. I don't think I've ever seen a sword done in 440 that was done well.

As far as 1060 goes, it can be pretty decent. I like 1095 out of the 10XX series the best, but I've seen fine swords done in 1075, for instance. Different smiths have different opinions about what kinds of steels they want to use for swords. It depends on what you want out of your swords.

The banshee isn't really an expensive blade... As you build your collection, you'll be surprised at how your perceptions change. I'd recommend richard j for sharpening services though. You might also look into the practical and practical plus line from Hanwei (all under 200), and if you want to spend a little more, you can find many other of their models, including the raptor line for 150-250.
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/signed

I would also recommend the Hanwei Tactical series IF you want a pure user blade. The scales are polymer, and it has a full tang. It is virtually impossible to damage the handle.

It's not nearly as pretty as their raptor and practical lines, but it uses the same steel, and is tough as nails. I have the Wakizashi, and i have used it for VERY non-sword stuff with absolutely no negative effect. (i cleared a nice little group of small trees with it a few weeks back). From my perspective, it is cheap enough that if i had broken or damaged it, it would have been no big deal, but it worked just fine

tactical_katana_1.jpg
 
Are they still making the tactical series? My favorite place isn't carrying them any more, it seems. I got my pair for under $150 for the both of them...
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
Are they still making the tactical series? My favorite place isn't carrying them any more, it seems. I got my pair for under $150 for the both of them...
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lol i certainly had not noticed that, but you're right. It looks like every store i buy from is out of stock. There's only one place with them in stock, and they want over 300 for the katana... it's definitely not worth that.

With that in mind, i fully endorse the Practical Katana

TS-PCH01_540.jpg
 
BePrepared said:
okay, there's a lot to reply to there... the first thing, and i want to make this ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, is that anything stainless steel is not a sword... it's just not.

Stainless steel is PAINFULLY brittle. There are semi-stainless materials like INFI, D2, S7, and other tool steels that make good swords, but 440c is NOT one of them. One good whack on the flat, and a stainless blade will either snap of be severely damaged.
Click to expand...

That's a BS statement.

Barry Dawson AND others have great heat treatment for 440C and make credible swords out of the material....not a GREAT sword by comparison, but a very good sword...good as in...... I have done tameshigiri with a wakizashi and katana owned by a sadly deceased member of my dojo, and the swords did quite well.

Your point about quality carbon steel is certainly accurate...but if you are going to come off as an expert, you should know what you are talking about in depth.

I would have sent you a PM and not done this publicly, but you are "only" a registered user and I couldn't figure out how to do it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
as mentioned in a previous post, i'm certainly no expert on what a "good" sword is, but i am very much an expert on trash swords.

I would assume that if it were possible to make a decent sword from stainless, the price would be WAY outside the price range the OP is looking to spend

Thanks for the input on the stainless sword though. I had no idea that even a passable sword in 440 existed.
 
Saying a blade is made from "damascus" tells you jack diddly. A maker could forge up a billet of wrought iron and pure nickel that would be high contrast and pretty but would be worthless as a blade (if that's all that's in it). If you're going to lay down money for a "damascus" blade, know what alloys went into it.

And as has been pointed out, heat treatment is more important than alloy. A crappy heat treatment in wunderstahl is going to be much worse than a well-done heat treatment in simple steel. That's where careful attention to craftsmanship comes in, and why reputation for such means the ability to command higher prices.

As for "black steel", it can be done with all kinds of different steel; you're looking at a wide variety of surface treatments. Any steel that is just ground is going to be shiny. If you want it dark, you have to do some kind of etching or coating, all of which will wear to varying degrees in use.
 
I beat my Condor Viking Machete hard enough to break the handles loose cutting a few trees down, full power strikes on a 25" 420hc blade, hit some rocks on accident hard enough to throw sparks over a foot, and the edge was fine except where I hit the rocks.

It isn't INFI, but stainless can definitely be made tough enough with the right heat treat.
 
Blade shape may have a thing to do with its brittleness.. perhaps katanas are too thin to be made of stainless?
 
viper2788 said:
Blade shape may have a thing to do with its brittleness.. perhaps katanas are too thin to be made of stainless?
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I believe it has more to do with grain structure then blade geometry. A sword must be able to bend and take shock in a way a knife does not. A good sword is not just sharp, it is also "tough."
 
viper2788 said:
Blade shape may have a thing to do with its brittleness.. perhaps katanas are too thin to be made of stainless?
Click to expand...

darkaether said:
I beat my Condor Viking Machete hard enough to break the handles loose cutting a few trees down, full power strikes on a 25" 420hc blade, hit some rocks on accident hard enough to throw sparks over a foot, and the edge was fine except where I hit the rocks.

It isn't INFI, but stainless can definitely be made tough enough with the right heat treat.
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Viper--see the above-quoted information. The Condor stainless machetes are MUCH thinner than a katana is.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Viper--see the above-quoted information. The Condor stainless machetes are MUCH thinner than a katana is.
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But then again its also wider(spine to edge), as well as shorter overall. Anyway, if stainless really is that tough, I wouldnt mind a stainless, maintenance-free katana. My old kaze isnt too pretty right now =/
 
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