Bladeforums Supporting Clone Dealer

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TheEdge01 said:
This seems to be a step backwards for BF. I have seen several people flamed for defending clones, now this site is allowing them to be sold here.
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I can see where you are coming from. I just think it's important to note that joining as a dealer here is not something that is weighed and valued and put before a committee of peers. It seems that you simply push a button, choose an option, and input your credit card information. I personally had no idea how this worked before this thread.

So it seems that according to this thread, Spark and the Supers are monitoring this particular vendor and will see how they behave. It is well documented how they conduct their business, but what they do outside of these "walls" can't be policed by Spark. While he can technically ban and keep your money for any reason at anytime, he has tried to maintain a more libertarian feel to the forum. The law is the law. We are free to be how we choose to be here up until we break the rules enough to be tossed out.

I think the main disconnect, which I was also guilty of reading to much into, is that there was no choice made here. No judgment on ethics came into play. A company basically purchased a $350 dealer membership that I could do myself right now if I wanted to. The best way the forum rules can handle this is to allow Topomart to break the rules, get splashed, and enrich our community $350 because they thought they could skirt the system.

So, I would think that simply keeping a collective community eye on ALL dealers suspected of pushing clones would be the best way to get rid of companies that harm our hobby as a whole.
 
Ajack60 said:
Someone made a remark about background checks. Is it possible to delay the dealer membership fees for a few days to give the staff a chance to determine if new or existing dealers fit in with the existing community of BFC ?
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As part of the staff, let me state that I have neither desire nor ability to fulfill this option. I work a 10-hour day 5 days a week in a mentally demanding position. During the work week I spend a few hours in the evening as a moderator as my donation to the community. I spend more time here on weekends, but still, I have a life outside the forum. I have neither the time nor the background knowledge to go out and identify clones on other web sites. Please count me out of any retail site verification duties.
 
GeofS said:
I’m just wondering why you feel compelled to respond to every comment on this thread?
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Just to be clear, your asking someone why they're responding frequently to a forum.
I respond often when I'm interested and have nothing else going on.
I hope my answer was exciting or unique enough.

GeofS said:
Do you think the tone in which S&F was addressed was appropriate considering the tone he was using?
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I'm not interested in that discussion- that's not for me to weigh in on. I'm just saying S&F could have avoided the ban and still said his piece. It's too bad stuff like that happens but I'm not going to add additional piss in Spark's boots out of respect, if nothing else.

To get back on track

I think Spark has done an admirable job not acting impulsively on strong emotions. He’s answered all the questions asked to him to the best of his ability. The debate is solely on what’s appropriate for the actions of a forum owner. As such he’s done a great job describing the dilemma, his stance as an Administrator and even put the cherry on top by sharing his own personal opinion. I think if folks want more than that they're going to be out of luck.

I appreciate that this thread needed to happen. It's probably the sign of a healthy forum- we'll probably revisit the discussion in the future as we encounter new instances of ethical questions. I think in the future it'd behoove us as a forum to focus on our opinions on the ethical debate instead of conjecture as to the motivations for a given action, or worse, defamation of character of the very people who make this great place possible.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
I have been a member here for going on 18 years and a mod for, I dunno, 10...maybe? I don't keep record of that simply because I value my membership and friendships here over a title my subform has no real need for.

So a couple of things to keep in mind: This is Spark's show.
He is the owner and the boss, and have no doubt that whatever he decides to do will be/has been weighed.
I'm going to guess that he's probably super busy with the holiday rush not only with his business but also with all the shipping headaches that COVID has caused. Also, keep in mind that there are a couple more days of Hanukkah left.
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^ This! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Spark said:
Wow. Just, wow. I'm closing this thread before I let my temper take control of me and start telling some of you how I actually feel about this.

I've spent 20+ years keeping this site open through thick & thin and the general shitty attitude that a couple of you are displaying over someone who joined, a couple weeks ago, using an automated subscription system is astounding. I stated it clearly: I CANNOT POLICE WHAT PEOPLE SELL ON THEIR OWN WEBSITES. Likewise, I have no control over keyword spam or anything else they similarly do to promote themselves in search engines. If you guys start using that standard, I have bad news for you - you are going to blacklist some of your favorite dealers. (No I won't do your homework for you either).

I'm going to go blow off some steam and circle back to this in a bit.
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^ This (in bold) were my thoughts exactly, Spark, as I was reading through these first 15 pages.
It's quite indicative actually, of how some of the egocentric, self entitled personalities here, believe that they actually run this place. :rolleyes:

Spark said:
Ok, some thoughts in no particular order.

First, as always, I welcome useful feedback and constructive criticism. I'm a pretty laid back, live & let live individual. Please don't mistake a paid subscription, at any level, as a license to get away with unsavory behavior or being a pain in the ass. Some of you are quite close to being shown the door and would be wise to exercise a bit of self moderation.

Second, BladeForums.com is not the World IP police. We are a resource to the knife community, and provide a place for you to discuss issues in a community setting. I draw the line at what I can feasibly control: conduct & actions that take place on this website. We don't ban people for actions taken off site. We don't police Facebook, Google or eBay dealings, advertisers, etc. It's not my place, nor do I have any authority over them. If I came at Dealer members and said "sorry, you carry [x] brand who knocks off [y] brand, drop them or we're banning you" I'd expect to get laughed at; it's not like I can demand their hosting company turn their site off. Likewise, if you expect me to dictate to SHOT Show or BLADE Show who can exhibit there, you are in for a rude awakening. Weirdly, I don't see any of you demanding that people not support those organizations, or dealers who support them monetarily.

Third, I have not sold the forums, and retain 100% control over them. I view snide comments about me being bribed as a personal insult against my integrity and considering the amount of suffering & sacrifice I've done to provide this site, there is no faster way to earn yourself a spot on my to-do list. Considering the offers that have been made to sell this site, user data and other key metrics, I have to laugh if you think some knockoff dealer has pockets deep enough to come for me.

Fourth, having a paid subscription here doesn't mean we endorse or legitimize any member, from basic to pirate. We've banned more than a few paid subscribers, including a couple "high end" dealers who are in "good standing" on certain sites. I've banned people I had legit business relationships with, yet you still see their wares advertised on the forums including by certain Dealer members.

Fifth, I will do what I can to explain things as best as I can, including my point of view, however you are not "owed" an explanation about any action I take or transparency as to what we're doing behind the scenes. I've discussed with Boru13 Boru13 my thoughts on this issue, and where I stand. I've explained to him expectations and what my plan is; he understands it and you can rest assured that we're both of a similar mindset here. You should take that as a sign that I'm monitoring this issue and it hasn't slipped off my radar.

So, you have two choices:
  1. You can exercise a modicum of self control & patience and understand that I'm aware of topomart topomart and your concerns, and I have my eye on them, or
  2. You can see yourself out.
Some of you have expressed that your choice is option 2. I regret to see you go, but I support your choice.
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^ :thumbsup::thumbsup: Spark: I personally, would like to say "thank you," for all the selfless work/time you've given over the past 2+ Decades, providing such a wonderful venue for many of us "knife nuts," a place where we can both enjoy & partake in this hobby.

As for my feelings/detest, toward's the knife cloning parasites of the World: Yes, I don't like it either, however, it doesn't give me (or anyone else for that matter) carte blanche, to come on here & insult of all people, the owner of this forum! :thumbsdown:

Hopefully I can finish the last 13 pages sometime later during the work week.
 
knarfeng said:
As part of the staff, let me state that I have neither desire nor ability to fulfill this option. I work a 10-hour day 5 days a week in a mentally demanding position. During the work week I spend a few hours in the evening as a moderator as my donation to the community. I spend more time here on weekends, but still, I have a life outside the forum. I have neither the time nor the background knowledge to go out and identify clones on other web sites. Please count me out of any retail site verification duties.
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That was a question I had, if the option can anyhow be considered : is it easier to check a dealer before granting BF dealer status rather than screening through what he displays once he has set foot in the house ? Of course, this raises a further question : the offering of an accepted dealer can vastly evolve and change over time. Who will monitor that and how ?
 
Ill be buying gold in the new year.. dunno how toPOOmart can shake some peoples world so bad.. stick to the sub forums and the locals will steer you right.. when in doubt just ASK .. were on forums. Nobody should be getting ripped off OR spending hard earned money without doing a bit of research on what their buying or whos taking the cash anyways ..
 
herisson said:
That was a question I had, if the option can anyhow be considered : is it easier to check a dealer before granting BF dealer status rather than screening through what he displays once he has set foot in the house ? Of course, this raises a further question : the offering of an accepted dealer can vastly evolve and change over time. Who will monitor that and how ?
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This is the gray area where the complexity of an "easy" fix like a list of "Good Guys" gets complicated due to human nature. We've all seen folks fall off whatever wagon they were riding upon and go tips up in the customer service department. Its easy to go the extra mile when you're only focused on the mile. A mile after a marathon is another story. It would be incredibly difficult to police once their foot was in the door.

Even adding more to the Hall of Fame would be more work than any of the Supers have time to manage. I can appreciate that fact, and should have thought it through more before suggesting it.

Hopefully any shifty dealers that slide into here are careless enough to get the ban hammer before their cause any issues. At the end of the day, I suppose it makes more sense to let good word of mouth guide folks to whomever they want to deal with.
 
We don't screen the Knifemakers who join this forum and promote their business, and we know we've had Knifemakers in the past that have gone "off the rails" and earned a ban for bad business practices. I don't see how a Dealer is different from a Knifemaker in all relevant areas.
 
Maybe it’s just a count of like? After a certain threshold you’re considered “in” (insert vetted title)

Old timers probably already have the count. The members do the vetting.
 
tejasandre said:
Maybe it’s just a count of like? After a certain threshold you’re considered “in” (insert vetted title)

Old timers probably already have the count. The members do the vetting.
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The more thought I give it, I would think it would be more efficient for someone to just ask a question in a TGBU thread as simple as "I'm wanting a spirit run Endura. Who's good to work with?" You'd most likely end up with various votes for the more well thought of dealers. As new dealers jump in, they'll have to do their best to work into the collective by offering excellent service and fair prices. No one is going to suggest Topomart is an legitimate place to get high quality/real deal stuff.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
The more thought I give it, I would think it would be more efficient for someone to just ask a question in a TGBU thread as simple as "I'm wanting a spirit run Endura. Who's good to work with?" You'd most likely end up with various votes for the more well thought of dealers. As new dealers jump in, they'll have to do their best to work into the collective by offering excellent service and fair prices. No one is going to suggest Topomart is an legitimate place to get high quality/real deal stuff.
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Isn’t that how it works now?

they already count likes. All they need to do is add a badge. Probably not super labor intensive
 
Don't have a clue how the dealer membership works currently. Maybe this is already in place.
Would it be possible to draft an agreement/guidelines form stating the do's and don't that a dealer would have to adhere to in order to sell their products here. Even though they might sell clones on their site, they couldn't post any ads for them here. Make it a zero tolerance understanding that there are no uh-oh's, sorry I won't do that again.
There are countless threads started asking about the value of a knife form members that don't have the membership level to ask. Most of the time it's someone that just signed up and hasn't read all the rules.
 
Ajack60 said:
Don't have a clue how the dealer membership works currently. Maybe this is already in place.
Would it be possible to draft an agreement/guidelines form stating the do's and don't that a dealer would have to adhere to in order to sell their products here. Even though they might sell clones on their site, they couldn't post any ads for them here. Make it a zero tolerance understanding that there are no uh-oh's, sorry I won't do that again.
There are countless threads started asking about the value of a knife form members that don't have the membership level to ask. Most of the time it's someone that just signed up and hasn't read all the rules.
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Not being able to sell clones is already how the dealer subscription operates.
 
Hello, I am sorry that my problem has brought such a big impact to BF. I have exited the dealer and stopped posting any sales and advertising posts here. Please don’t argue, I ask the administrator to close this post. Thank you.
 
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